Golden ratio - Irrational Mathematical Constant

[Frog4]

The Golden Ratio - How many designers use this in their designs?

[daiquiri]

No golden ratios in naval architecture. Physics, not alchemy, is what governs a ship design.

[kerosene]

it is not _bad_ tool for certain styling proportion choices but really - in most cases trained eye does a better job. It is one of those things that when analyzing has been afterward forced to fit many successful designs/artwork.

Similar to the kind where you add Hitlers birth date and death date multiply by this and divide by that and you get 666!!!! or something. or those silly facial proportion pentagram things you might have seen in documentaries about beauty.

Certainly the same ratio and Fibonacci sequence 1,2,3,5,8,13,21...(consecutive numbers have same ratio as golden section) do show up a lot in nature. Interesting but wouldn't let it make very big decisions.

[Adler]

Dear All,

We observed, that on Navy Ships the General Dimensions (Monohull-SemiDisp/Displ - round bilge)
appears a strong relation between LOA and Beam that based in a function (regression 0.97)
where the constant ϕ is involved:

LOA= (B^F) /ϕ where F=ϕ^ϕ and for ϕ=1,61803398874989
then F= 2.17845756793758.

The matter comes from dreadnought type to nowadays.
We have to note that as Frog4 put the subject on the table.

[Adler]

Regarding the matter please see the attached.

[Frog4]

was also thinking about the 80-20 rule (Pareto Principle), 10% Rule and the 3's and 5's rules within design ...

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by Adler

Dear All,

We observed, that on Navy Ships .... .

Which Navy - how many ships ?

Did you include Aircraft carriers ?

[Lister]

Lister

[Adler]

Originally Posted by rwatson

Which Navy - how many ships ?

Did you include Aircraft carriers ?

Round bilge:

Patrol Boats - Torpedo Boats (Lurssen Schnellboote) - Frigates - Destroyers - Battle Cruisers

with LOA up to 180m.

The Aircraft carriers is a combined ship + platform that has completely different
purpose of design.
Actually strikes with her Aircrafts and not by her arms and has no ability to hunt.

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by Frog4

was also thinking about the 80-20 rule (Pareto Principle), 10% Rule and the 3's and 5's rules within design ...

The Pareto Principle isn't a design rule like the Golden Ratio, its a statistical principle that may apply to aspects of design

eg 20% more HP will give 80% better fuel economy.

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by Adler

We observed, that on Navy Ships the General Dimensions (Monohull-SemiDisp/Displ - round bilge) appears a strong relation between LOA and Beam that based in a function (regression 0.97) where the constant ϕ is involved:
LOA= (B^F) /ϕ where F=ϕ^ϕ and for ϕ=1,61803398874989
then F= 2.17845756793758.

Total and complete nonsense. Looks like you didn't even bother to check your theories against data of existing ships.

Here is a capture of a spreadsheet with LOA and B data of several ship classes from various navies around the world, together with a graph where these data are shown as points. In the same graph there is a line given by your mystic formula. Now you tell me what relationship can you see between that line and the data from real ships?

Originally Posted by Adler

Regarding the matter please see the attached.

Your attachment lacks the connection with the real world - see the above graph.

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by daiquiri

Total and complete nonsense. Looks like you didn't even bother to check your theories against data of existing ships.

Here is a capture of a spreadsheet with data of several ship classes from different world navies, together with a graph which graphically shows the relationship between B and LOA of these ships (point data). In the same graph there is a line given by your formula. Now you tell me what relationship can you see between that line and the data from real ships?

Attachment 62868


Your attachment lacks the connection with the real world - see the above graph.

Well done Daiquiri - I suspected that it was all too neat, hence my questions.
There is no such thing as a simple solution in this complex world.

For a more thorough discussion on the Golden Rule, the thread at

placement and spacing of frames

might apply.

Do you know the user CaptBill, Adler ?

[Frog4]

Originally Posted by daiquiri

Total and complete nonsense. Looks like you didn't even bother to check your theories against data of existing ships.

Your attachment lacks the connection with the real world - see the above graph.

I think you should have asked;

"where" the data came from?
"Which" navy?

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by Frog4

I think you should have asked;

"where" the data came from?
"Which" navy?

We did !!

Originally Posted by rwatson

Which Navy - how many ships ?

Did you include Aircraft carriers ?

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by Frog4

I think you should have asked;
"where" the data came from?
"Which" navy?

The data in my spreadsheet come from existing ships from 4 actual navies and they clearly show that the "rule" and the following claim

"We observed, that on Navy Ships the General Dimensions (Monohull-SemiDisp/Displ - round bilge) appears a strong relation between LOA and Beam that based in a function (etc...)"

has no basis in the real world, where physics and SORs (and not mystic ratios and formulas) are what determine the shape of a ship.
If it's the form of my reply, and not the substance, that bothered you, then I'm sorry it has bothered you. Sometimes a person feels a need to double-underline his disapproval of unbacked and misleading claims.