Going from Kayak Design to Yacht Design

[6ix]

I've been a professional industrial designer working in sporting goods (kayaks, canoes, bicycles) for about 10 years now, but am looking to branch out into other areas. Yachts, a natural extension from my experience in designing kayaks, has me particularly interested.

How much of the experience I have designing kayaks (for the world's largest watersports producer) will translate to yacht/boat design? Is there room for a properly trained industrial designer in the industry? My schooling included transportation design and I've been incredibly impressed by the work done by Wally.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! I'm not looking to design the hull. I figure that's best left to the engineers and people with the most sailing/boating experience. But everything waterline up, I figure I can tackle.

Thanks!!

[Tim B]

Some design teams use an industrial designer for the topsides, but these are generally on larger yachts or motorboats where there are less restrictive constraints on structure, headroom, vessel operation etc.

I'm not sure how much knowledge of kayaks will really translate directly, as yachts and motorboats are considerably mode complex than kayaks. One of the major issues that any designer has is fitting the interior accomodation into the vessel's hull, in such a way that it remains useful both at sea and along-side. I've seen lots of boats that meet one requirement, but only one or two that meet both (and I wasn't able to extensively test those on passages).

Some of the aforementioned have had full-width galleys. It's a beautiful layout at a boatshow, but not when you're at sea trying to make a pot of beans. So when thinking about ID in yachts or powerboats try the "bean test". Can I heat a pot of beans in a seaway I'm likely to encounter, without causing damage to the vessel or crew? Sadly, this usually leaves you with a galley which seems very small when you're not at sea. However it's your job to make sure that it still looks good at the boat show.

If you think that's hard, try making all the single berths useful at sea, and keeping the heads usable at sea, and you start to get the picture.

I'm not trying to put you off, just to give you some examples to think about. I'm pretty sure that I'd be a pain in the arse as a client, but for me, the vessel must work at sea (and this is the priority), and look decent in the marina. It seems for many design teams it's the other way around.

Tim B.

[6ix]

Thanks for the insight, Tim. Much appreciated, and certainly brings up some very valid points. For many designers, the focus is only the form followed by the function. I was educated to focus on the function. The superior function of a good design provides the opportunity for excellent form, in my opinion. That's what ideation is for. First, sketch out the ideal scenario for function, then make it aesthetically pleasing. Granted, it shouldn't be a simple "prettying up," but more of an integration of form and function. I've never been one to accept the idea that you can engineer something and then try to make it look good. It needs to be integrated into the form.
Alas, I digress. My main CAD expertise lies in Rhino and Solidworks. Hull design aside, are these the main programs utilized in the boat/yacht industry?

[dreamer]

Evan

Even though you don't want to do the hull design, you'll need to know how to work with it as Tim B has pointed out.

Really though, to make it easier to get started, design a boat for yourself. What would you like to see in a boat? It would help if you can step aboard a boat and have a look around. There are so many possibilities to design stuff on a boat that you'll really need to work hard to narrow your vision for starters. Have a look around this site. There are a lot of examples of folks who have specific design goals. That should be your first action. Set some criteria such as

• length : a 20' day boat or a 120' dream-killer
  location: lakes/rivers/coastal/offshore - there's a lot of water out there.
  climate: temperate/tropical
  material: metal/GRP/processed moon rock
  propulsion: wind/engine/people

Since it doesn't seem there's a huge demand for guys who design yachts, keep your day job. Use your spare time to learn. If you're even somewhat technical, you can easily learn some of the basics of hull design. There are stories of ID guys transition to Yacht design without too much difficulty. If you're software savvy, grab a copy of Rhino and Rhinomarine (hurry, Rhinomarine is discontinuing).

Really though, you pretty much have to read. Check out websites. Read. Go see some boats. Read. You get the idea.

As Tim pointed out, probably not a lot about your kayak experience will transition to designing yachts. Probably best bet is to forget everything you know about kayaks and start with a fresh mind.

My background is industrial/machine design so I may not be a good gauge. I don't consider myself a 'successful' yacht designer, but I know a lot about dabbling.

edit: My software experience is Rhino (about a 5 out of 10) and SolidWorks (a pretty solid 10 out of 10). Check out my gallery. All those models were done in SolidWorks with Rhino doing the hull on 2 or 3 of them.

[6ix]

Rick...lot of great suggestions. I'm really excited. If I don't have a lot of contract work to do next month (finishing up a dual-suspension mountain-bike frame at the moment), I'm going to design my own personal yacht for a portfolio piece. I'm sure to make a LOT of mistakes, but hopefully you guys will help me through the process. Will be great learning experience, that's for sure.

As for CAD, I'm definitely elite-level with Rhino and decent with Solidworks.

Thanks again for everyone reading this and following it. I'll start posting some of my sketches soon.

[dreamer]

hah...don't expect this lot to be all that helpful except to tell you to RTFT or use search or here, read this.

but I kid. Sort of.

Honestly though, it will be for the better.

I'll throw out some books to get you started:

Dave Gerr's 'The Nature of Boats'
Dave is at Westlawn. I'm Not a big fan of Westlawn, but that's a personal thing. Dave's got some good, basic insight into boats in this book.

Yacht Design according to Perry A personal favorite. Bob's a pretty hardheaded guy. In a fun way. I've done some piecemeal work with him. He really knows how to break the technical stuff down for anyone to understand. Focus is on sailboats.

Ted Brewer's Understanding Yacht Design - I don't have this but I intend to get it. This basic little primer actually goes a long way to explaining things.

I'm sure you will get a lot of other suggestions.

[6ix]

Thanks for the book suggestions. Think I'm in WAY over my head with this. Maybe wasn't a great idea.

[Easy Rider]

6ix,
I built my first kayak when I was 12 (canvas ans spruce) and have dabbled w kayaks and canoes all the rest of my life. We now have more than one of each. Are any kayaks or canoes designed my a Naval Architect? I've been wondering about that for decades. It looks like kayak designers take an existing design, modify it with their own ideas and offer "thier" design. Lots of other small boats may be designed that way too. I flew ultralight aircraft for 20 yrs and know almost all of them are not designed by Aeronautical Engineers.
If you are a good kayak designer you will probably be a successful NA if you have the interest, capacity and background to cope with the math and science part of the profession. Grand Banks and Flemming build beautiful boats. There are many boats as good but are only so so boats because the NA responsible for them do not know a beautiful line or shape from an awkward or clumsy one. Look at the shape of the tails (vertical stabilizers) as viewed from the side of home built aircraft. If you can separate the ugly from the beautiful your in.
Much of what you know about windage and directional stability, The relationship between PC, speed and minimum resistance and other basic stuff will put you far ahead of others that don't command such knowledge.
These are opinions and of an amateur only. However I offer them as one with fingers in both pies.

Easy Rider

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by Easy Rider

... Are any kayaks or canoes designed my a Naval Architect? I've been wondering about that for decades.

Wonder no more, Easy.

Probably the two best known NA's with a direct impact on the kayak and canoe world are John Winters and Steve Killing. Winter's was/is at the leading edge of modern canoe and kayak design and brought the discipline and technology of naval architecture to the craft, forever changing the process for all who have followed.

Very early on, when I first started down the road of small craft design, John Winters made himself available to my emails, phone calls and incessant piles of questions on the process. He always encouraged me to create, resolve and then build my own canoes and kayaks until I understood what a particular change would mean to the overall performance of the boat.

I use Rhino to design all of my boats and to create files for plywood, as well as smooth hulled build variations. Hydrostatics are performed with RhinoMarine.

From my experience, 6, you are going to need to identify what types of boats you would like to engage with your skills and then spend a whole bunch of time working at understanding the issues involved in order to become a solid creator of solutions.

[ancient kayaker]

Do you have any sailing experience with the kinds of boats you would like to design? If not you owe it to your future clients to get some. Here is a wonderful example of what happens when fingers meet keyboard without it -

Incredible design, the oviparouswoolmilkpig ?

[dreamer]

Originally Posted by 6ix

Thanks for the book suggestions. Think I'm in WAY over my head with this. Maybe wasn't a great idea.

Too late. We all saw it.

I don't think the approach to solving a boat design problem is any different than the approach to solving an ID problem. In fact, I would put many of the ID projects I've seen far and away more complex than any boat designs I've seen.

I really liked Easy's take on this. The Aesthetic has been missing for some time in boat design and it's only in the past few years that it's making a comeback. Have a look through the gallery here. There is some really incredible, thought provoking work going on.

Naval Architects have contributed a great deal to the craft, but I would not consider NAs as the authority on boat design. Typically, the NA will help advance new thinking, but it will take true 'designers' to polish it.

I use the term 'designers' to mean those who can design. I had a battle of semantics with someone here a while back on the word 'designer'. As far as I'm concerned, if you can design and you've got the work to back it up, that's good enough for me.

If I were you, I wouldn't let guys like me discourage me from giving it a shot.

[6ix]

I think it should be pointed out that I want to work with a NA to develop a boat. My role would be to create the visual language for everything from the water-line up. Somewhat similar to a transportation designer skinning a car.

Now, I'm sure many of you will disagree with this, but I actually see my lack of experience in sailing to be an asset when it comes to bringing new ideas to the table. Granted, many of them will be a flop for reasons unknown to me, but some may just be what the industry needs.

After reading the comments, I'm teetering on not even giving this a shot. But ever since seeing a Wally yacht in the movie "The Island," it's something I've been wanting to get involved in.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by dreamer

... I use the term 'designers' to mean those who can design. I had a battle of semantics with someone here a while back on the word 'designer'. As far as I'm concerned, if you can design and you've got the work to back it up, that's good enough for me.

Rick, Could you point me in the direction of that discussion? I'd like to read what has been recently laid down before posting any comments of my own on the subject.

Originally Posted by dreamer

If I were you, I wouldn't let guys like me discourage me from giving it a shot.

Nice.

[Chris Ostlind]

Originally Posted by 6ix

... My role would be to create the visual language for everything from the water-line up. Somewhat similar to a transportation designer skinning a car.

I have a very talented friend who is doing just that and he is very quietly having his own impact on things in incremental doses. Unlike the car field, where sometimes-risky takes on design utility are routinely shown, boat builders tend to be more of a herd in many regards.

Fresh car designs can sway an entire genre from year to year, where boat design work well out of the "mainstream", gets dosed heavily by the folks who are not willing to try new ideas.

Recently, I posted a thread in which the concept of "Daring to Say No" to the current crop of fuel guzzling power boats was placed on the table. The response was predictably all about the working pros in the field offering, as virtually a single organism, their take that it's all about the customer and not about the designers at all. They feel that the customers’ demands are the most important and a designer who leaves the existing shell of acceptability will instantly doom his chances of remaining in business.

I think differently with some caveats. There should always be room for a major company, as well as the obvious, more open to risk, small outfits to explore fresh ideas with an eye to producing craft that move us away from the existing paradigm of over-consumption. There won't be many customers who just walk-up and ask you to design a high efficiency boat for their recreational purposes, unless you first design and put forth publicly, examples of that potential. Hence the business of the very openly splashed, one-off concept cars in the auto industry.

I say explore it fully, Six, before you toss it in the dumpster. Your drive on the subject matter will show itself in short order and the knowledge you gain will always enhance your work in other areas, even if you do leave we boaters to our own stew.

[dreamer]

6ix

I think once you start investigating this, you'll find it very rewarding. Honestly, if you get your hands on something like Rhinomarine or Orca, you can use the wizards to build a hull using some basic, intuitive dimensions. Even when you say 'From the waterline up', that still means you'll be working with a large portion of the hull. The pointy end, the 'other' end, and the sheerline are heavily influenced by aesthetics.

Chris

That conversation is here. Personally, I think there is a very clear distinction between 'design' and 'engineering' which I think Ad Hoc was trying to point out.