Fuel economy discussion...more important now than ever!?

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind

.......

Anyway, it would be great to hear any comments and/or questions regarding either design.

Chris

Chris
I want to see it in operation. It is a nice looking boat. There has to be a large undeveloped market for a boat like this.

Rick W.

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Westfield 11

Rick I completely agree with you.

Where we may part company is with the idea of compelling people to behave in a certain manner that someone else thinks is going to be "good" for them. I may even agree that it WILL be "good" for them it's just the idea of making people comply by removing all alternatives that bothers me. This would be like shutting down all the elevators and escalators to force people to take the stairs. All for a good cause, but compulsive none the less.


Michael

Michael
I do not like the idea of compelling people either. It is much better if it is done by choice. You see varying examples of this in different countries with the way governments approach drug use - as an example. Some regulate strictly others leave it to individuals.

The need for governments to regulate though is apparent in many aspects of life. Smoking is an area where regulations have tightened to protect some from others. Automative speeds are regulated in most jurisdictions to protect some from others or themselves.

Many people just make dumb choices and governments step in. How often do you see overweight people hoeing into eggs for breakfast, burger for lunch and steak for dinner. They cannot control themselves. They are addicted to food. The same thing has happened with fuel. We are so addicted that we do not give it a second thought. Imagine if you lined up 1 litres bottles of fuel to fill your car. It is too easy to pump 15 gallons of a diminishing resource in a car.

I can see pressure building for ways to regulate fuel usage rather than allowing market forces to do the job. It is happening in indirect ways already. Some European cites have banned use of private vehicles in city centres or tax so highly to make it prohibitive. Many cities are encouraging car pooling by making through lanes available for multi-occupant cars.

I can see momentum building for direct regulation of fuel usage. Most governments are hamstrung on the supply side so they have to manage the demand side. Price alone is not a satisfactory signal as it favours the wealthy.

The commentary on this thread is interesting to reflect on. The contributors cover a wide range of views. Some do not consider the possibility of human powered boats without having sampled what is possible with current technology. There are very view people who ride a fast pedal boat who are not impressed by the experience. I definitely see it as a fun way to really enjoy the time on water. Apart from the effort to get the boat to water it is far more relaxing and enjoyable than riding a bike. It takes considerably less effort to get on the water than a sailing boat. They are faster over a course than most sailing dinghies in pleasant weather.

I made a choice 6 years ago to shift my recreational interests to less fuel intensive pursuits. That is my choice and I would not want to force it on others. I just see that there is opportunity for many others to make a similar choice and that leaves the door open for those who still want to operate their 1000HP 50ft cruiser to do so - their choice. BUT if those who can afford to burn fuel like it is endless continue to do so then governments will be forced to step in for the common good.

Rick W.

[Bullshipper]

Chris,

Beam is everthing in multihulls IMO.

Year round wide load permits to travel within the state or from state to state on ocassion are cheap ( Like $50).

Once in dry storage, the ramps are very close, so going beck and forth to the water is no hassle, so I wouldn't sacrifce the stability and deck space of a wider beam multihull over chump change.

[FAST FRED]

The young , who can read are the target , as they realize NO insurance till 30 or 35 makes the most sense financially for themselves.

These are the fodder for the cash desired for Universal health care.

Only when the sick get tired of dieing in line , waiting for their turn for "care", or when the euthenasia of any folks with costly procedures gets really visible will the system get fixed.

Mu "fix" would be to require folks to have a policy that only covers medical DISASTER , say over $20,000 US in one year.

Any smaller bills would simply be charged to a medical master charge card , and paid off like any other consumer debt.

Hopefully folks would SHOP, for services as its their , not some 3rd party's cash being spent.

On topic I think Ricks boat could have two options.

The Amas could simply swing in for storage and stability, going down as they come in so the entire beam of the assemblage would help stability in a slip.

Or, since the single hull should be stable at speed with out amas , any in port roll could be handled with the dink set alongside as a proa on an arm.

FF

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

......

On topic I think Ricks boat could have two options.

The Amas could simply swing in for storage and stability, going down as they come in so the entire beam of the assemblage would help stability in a slip.

Or, since the single hull should be stable at speed with out amas , any in port roll could be handled with the dink set alongside as a proa on an arm.

FF

Fred at the risk of boring people with the OzHPV video again I will post the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckWqIgmVM4Y
You might want to turn the sound down. Anyhow if you sit through this you can see how the amas fold in at the very end of the video. This is how I transport and store it. At 24ft it is too long for the back of the garage so I have racks under the eaves at the back of the garage.

I took out a provisional patent on this folding geometry many years ago for a self-righting cat but realised it would probably decapitate or squash crew if used for that purpose.

The main hull is more or less unstable at any speed. I have the amas set up so they ride the bow wave of the main hull at design speed. They normally sit just above the water until the wave gets back to them. At 6.5kts everything comes together nicely.

Rick

[Knut Sand]

Rick.
I'm impressed, what kinda propeller/ gear do you use? How's speed/ range?

Chris.
Nice design there! One possibility to make it even more narrow could be to place the sitting area where the (eehh?) stringers are (uncertain of the name, but the arms for the outriggers). Can be even thinner..., if you only need to make room for the legs in there...

[Chris Ostlind]

Thanks, Knut

It's more about a constrained LOA than it is about a structural issue with the interior. In order to get a defined figure of displacement with a fixed length, I have but a couple of parameters with which to fiddle; hull beam and hull draft.

In order to keep things reasonably manageable for trailer off-loading, the draft had to also be constrained to some extent, or the boat would have to go to a sling lift for launching and that is all about money, rather than the owner's time and convenience.

Truly, I wanted to take it out to 40' LOA and have an absolute needle of a hull for real efficiency, but that takes the whole design well out of the reasonable for the majority of trailered launching ramps, as well as decently affordable powerplants, affordable building materials and that real essential problem; where can the boat be built?

So, I had to grind on back to the business of making compromises here and there while working hard to maintain the original goals.

The next iteration in this design idiom is going to be directed to the catamaran, where I can get those really skinny hulls, wide bridgedecks... and a whole host of other design compromises ;-)

Chris

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Knut Sand

Rick.
I'm impressed, what kinda propeller/ gear do you use? How's speed/ range?

...

This blog shows the latest iteration of my V11 design:
http://www.adventuresofgreg.com/HPB/...9_archive.html

There are photos that show the prop. This prop is milled from aluminium to my design - the machine shop will make similar props for CAD550. The prop is a percent or two more efficient than the hand fabricated ones I make in around 4hours from stainless flat bar. Prop efficiency is just over 87% at 12kph. There is some performance data for the boat in a table but the boat is still being sorted. Design is 12kph at 150W. My black V11A gets 12kph with 160W but it is a little heavier.

I usually gear around 4:1 for a pedal boat as this gives nice size prop.

I have recorded 18.2kph with my black V11A in a sprint. Greg has done 13.2kph at 200W but is not interested in sprinting. The gearing is too low for high speed as he runs a cadence of 90rpm at 150W. Hence you will see in his video that the pedals are going around quite fast.

Rick

[Wayne Grabow]

I'll vote for you. Unfortunately, it's not really about health care; it's just another power grab and excuse for income redistribution from those who earn it to those willing to vote for the favored party.

The young , who can read are the target , as they realize NO insurance till 30 or 35 makes the most sense financially for themselves.

These are the fodder for the cash desired for Universal health care.

Only when the sick get tired of dieing in line , waiting for their turn for "care", or when the euthenasia of any folks with costly procedures gets really visible will the system get fixed.

Mu "fix" would be to require folks to have a policy that only covers medical DISASTER , say over $20,000 US in one year.

Any smaller bills would simply be charged to a medical master charge card , and paid off like any other consumer debt.

Hopefully folks would SHOP, for services as its their , not some 3rd party's cash being spent.

[FAST FRED]

Rick, some of us folks in the wilderness have to go to the library to visit U tube , or anything that would take too much dedication on 54K dial up.

Will check outyour folding amas next trip to town.

"I took out a provisional patent on this folding geometry many years ago for a self-righting cat but realised it would probably decapitate or squash crew if used for that purpose."

Multihull Mag published a vessel called MATAMONA , back in the late 60's with this idea to get a much bigger cruising tri into a std slip.

FF