Following Seas

[Wish-I-Could]

My first post. Please be gentle..........

Briefly - I'm long time [4 year] lurker and previous coastal sailor out of Salem, Massachusetts. Sometimes 26' Clipper Marine, sometimes 28' Catalina, 19' Rhodes, row boats and speed boats [I'm 58]. My first boat was one of eight moored in Salem Harbor west side at Village Street in 1960.......... Now you can step across the boats to the other side of the harbor.

I've sailed out of San Diego alone on a 28' Catalina several times north and south. The sea can mount at that harbor...

Anyway - I'm a late bloomer in many ways and now have an 8 year old son. I'm ready to buy a cruiser in the 28' to 36' range if the price is right.... which is sub $20K USD and looking for sea keeping characteristics more than accommodations......

Required: Flybridge, dual helm; Inboard[s]; Full head / full galley.

It's likely I'll berth in the Merrimack River, maybe several miles upstream. Draft is not a problem... But coming home in to the river is a concern as incoming seas can build a mile off the mouth to 8' - 10' or more depending on wind and tide. That's a following sea condition I need to consider.

When I want to come home - I really need to... to get to work the next day. I can't lay about and wait for the tide to change.

FWIW - I love the looks and layout of the 34' Pequod....but have heard its following sea capability is marginal. What do you guys think?

I have recently inquired about a 28' Bertram http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/boa/1873879836.html

Am I making too big a deal about following sea capabilities?

Jinsong [mighty pine tree]

Thanks

[Pierre R]

In my opinion you are not making to big a deal about the following sea capabilites. You are making do big a deal about having to get back to work on time. For melenium seafarers have run with the tides and you should too. Plan on it for you departure and return. The sea is still the sea and you should respect it sans modern technology.

That said the Bertram is not a bad sea boat and handles better than most powerboats her size. None the less she is going to be a handful at inlets runing against a tide.

[keysdisease]

I owned a Mainship 34 that meets all your requirements, except the following sea. The Bert 28 does not have a lower helm BTW.

The production run of Mainships started in 1978, they had mostly Perkins 160 to 200 HP and were all single engine powered. Awesome size flybridge that extends over the cockpit, large head w seperate shower. I have seen several sell in the 20K range.

This is a "downeast" hull, pretty flat aft with a fine entry forward. Very easy to move, the 200HP models plane to about 14 knts. Very economical to operate.

The fine forefoot makes following sea's a workout as the entry tends to cause bow steer.

Steve

[Wish-I-Could]

Thanks all.

I always watch the tides - just looking for the enormous collective knowledge available here - if there is any one small cruiser better at following seas I'd find it here!

Work - is one of those things I must do - single Dad with an 8 year old son. College coming 10 years. I'm not wealthy and need to work!

If I may - a couple of more Qs?

Is there a resource where I can determine manufacturer specifications / hull / deck construction / etc. for out of production models?

EG - I don't want balsa core hull / deck on a 30 year old boat regardless of survey......

Thanks.

[Pierre R]

Originally Posted by Wish-I-Could

EG - I don't want balsa core hull / deck on a 30 year old boat regardless of survey......

Thanks.

Balsa is one of the best coring materials available even to this day. Contrary to what most people think it is also quite rot resistant.

Balsa coring above the waterline that is in good condition (not a bunch of unsealed hole drilled into it) need not be something to run from.

You are getting good advice here. Bert does pretty good as long as you can keep up on speed. Why no lower station - you know that boat? Every 28 I know has lower station from factory.

[mydauphin]

On some inlets, It is all about the power. This where reserve power comes in. But safer to wait for the tides. Some inlets can be a real challenge.

[CDK]

Originally Posted by Wish-I-Could

I'm ready to buy a cruiser in the 28' to 36' range if the price is right.... which is sub $20K USD and looking for sea keeping characteristics more than accommodations......

Required: Flybridge, dual helm; Inboard[s]; Full head / full galley.

It's likely I'll berth in the Merrimack River, maybe several miles upstream. Draft is not a problem... But coming home in to the river is a concern as incoming seas can build a mile off the mouth to 8' - 10' or more depending on wind and tide. That's a following sea condition I need to consider.

Can you get all that in usable condition under $20K ?

Following seas are dangerous only if your boat lacks the power to stay ahead, so you'll need two powerful, reliable engines. In a $20K boat that seems rare to me.

Another consideration is the wavelength. 10 ft crest height is no big deal if they are far enough apart, so your boat fits in between and you have the power to keep the bow against the wave in front of you.
Or you need a hull length which is considerable longer and let the waves pass under you. The budget seems prohibitive.....

[keysdisease]

Hello Mark,

I am familiar with the Bertram 28 and of the one I know well and several others I have been aboard none had lower helms. I just did a quick search on boattrader.com and looked at pics from several for sale to be sure I wasn't just getting old, none showed a lower helm.

Maybe you're thinking of the 31?

Steve

Originally Posted by mark775

You are getting good advice here. Bert does pretty good as long as you can keep up on speed. Why no lower station - you know that boat? Every 28 I know has lower station from factory.

All 28' Berts here are the "Rivers" model. I walked around and took some pics of the ones that were in port this afternoon. Interestingly, the 31s here, four of them, all have no inside steering. I wonder if it is chance or a "coastal" difference, or what...

[keysdisease]

I stand corrected. Maybe just like the 31's there were a bunch of different configurations through the production run.

Steve

[CatBuilder]

Knowing the Merrimack, my advice is to just wait an hour to two at most to come back in and plan your trips around the tides. Certainly, you'll want a following current (flood current) up the Merrimack to help you get to your mooring or slip faster. As luck would have it, you can pass through the harbor entrance at slack water, just after an ebb tide and ride a flood up to your slip! What could be better than that??

When the full outgoing flow of the tide is against an Easterly (South Easterly) wind, that's when you're likely to have the most problems. Conversely, when the current is at full flood (incoming flow) and you have a strong, fall NW wind cold front, you might get a little bit of a chop going there.

Lucky for you, New England's prevailing winds are SW, which is across your channel.

The 10' steep chop that forms (sometimes) is due to the strong current interacting with the wind. If it's not windy, you're set. If the wind is from the *same* direction as the tide is flowing, you're set. If you go through when there is little current (this happens more often than you'd think), you're set.

All in all, that mouth isn't difficult if you know how to navigate and watch out for that time period where you have full ebb flow and SE winds.

The real hazards are the shoals. Just stay in the channels, time your passage so as not to be there at the maximum current (and/or wind) and you'll have a smooth pass through.

Really, the steep chop at the mouth forms only for a couple of hours at a time. Just don't go through at that time. Pick any other time.

You'll do just fine....


See chart:

[kc135delta]

Originally Posted by CDK

Can you get all that in usable condition under $20K ?

Following seas are dangerous only if your boat lacks the power to stay ahead, so you'll need two powerful, reliable engines. In a $20K boat that seems rare to me.

Another consideration is the wavelength. 10 ft crest height is no big deal if they are far enough apart, so your boat fits in between and you have the power to keep the bow against the wave in front of you.
Or you need a hull length which is considerable longer and let the waves pass under you. The budget seems prohibitive.....

Ah, the twin engine myth rears its ugly head again.

In reality, if twin engines are required (combined hp is necessary power) operating on one engine will just get you to the crash site.

Unless you have full redundancy (require 400hp for operations, therefor having two 400hp motors) two motors aren't any more useful than one. Plus, you now have twice as much to go wrong.

Exactly.