Folding Kayaks

[RocknPine]

Hello,
My name is Pete and I wanted to get some feedback on a new design of mine that is patent pending. I've had this idea for more than 20 years and decided to do something about it 3 years ago. I'm on my 9th prototype and finally very satisfied with the results. At this point, I plan to have roughly 25 boats built for marketing purposes.
What makes my boat different from the rest is the way the frame folds/unfolds within the skin in 5 minutes or less. I have the weight down to 24 pounds (10kg), and the folded size measures 50" X 13" X 5". The length of the boat is 9 feet with a beam around 33". Displacement is greater than 300 pounds. It's quite roomy, stable, and very comfortable. While it won't mean much to true sea or white water kayakers I'm hoping it will have broader appeal. The appeal comes from the quick set up time and the portability. It should allow anyone that wants to travel with or has no space to store a boat the opportunity to do so.
Please feel free to visit www.foldingboatco.com for more information.
All critiques, good and bad, are welcome!
Thanks,
Pete

[ted655]

There are thousands of duck hunters that will never wade or swim out to a duck again.
Great idea! Be sure to make some "outdoor Shows" in Louisiana. Give some thought to 4 wheeler ATV transport.
I've a friend who is presently pulling a Fold A Boat behind his ATV now, like a sled, but it's all he has.
I see oil field inspectors using these also. You should do well. Good job my man !!
Me, I don't duck hunt, no.

[RocknPine]

Ted, that is very kind of you!
Actually, I love to duck hunt and fish which was great inspiration for this design. I especially enjoy getting into highland lakes for trout in WY & AK.
I do have two questions we, (my partner Blaine and I), could use help answering:
1) What might you expect to pay for this boat? (Before you answer, understand that we are using good quality materials like reinforced neoprene for the skin and light weight nylon and high quality aluminum tubing in the frame.)
2) Coming up with a good name for the boat has been difficult. The better ones are taken, or so it seems. I'm considering everything from Yakpak, Port-a-yak, Kpak, Fold-a-yak, Collapse-a-yak, etc. Yak-pak is what we are using now. Any suggestions would be appreciated, (and rewarded if used). Can anyone suggest a name for this boat?

[ted655]

Price? What is (or is close), your competition? Start there, Then add "Not a toy", "Not a gimmick". "Professional boat, highest quality materials". Then a price that tells me it's "the real deal". Your banker will want a business plan, with total information on every aspect, including a life insurance policy on ya'll. By the time you write that all up you will better know how much you HAVE to charge.
I'm thinking $600 is ball park.
.
Names, well actually "Folding kayak" caught my eye. "Travelers Kayak", "Flying kayak", "Instant kayak", "Hikers kayak" (Backpackers). "Kayak in a tube", Kayak in a sleeve", "Dehydrated Kayak", ?????
Stay away from "Yak", they are ill tempered little beasts.
.
I had a friend start a business, people who had been his friend for years, helped him get started. Once they smelled success, several tried to move in and become primary s on his loans, thus giving them HIS business! I don't envy ya'll, watch your back AND HOW things are worded in contracts & loan papers.
Oh yeah, that friend now does over 2 million a year. Good luck!

[RocknPine]

Hey Ted,
Thanks for the feedback. I have a pretty good idea of what I HAVE to retail price the kayak for. What I don't know is what folks will be willing to pay, hence the question.
I have spent almost 2 years putting a business plan together. I'm in the marketing phase now, I'd like to wholesale the boats. We are also sourcing production, a tedious task.
I don't know that I'll make any money on this venture, to soon to say. I hope to at the very least break even. Retiring in 5 years would be much better than having to work until I'm 95 to pay off the debt I have invested so far.
I really have enjoyed working for myself though. I've learned a great deal and made many new great acquaintances.

[ted655]

I just had my duck hunting buddy take a look. He was excited by the camo model. He already owns 2 porta boats, but said IF yours was easy to assemble & durable, it would have the edge over the others. He said $1,000 to $600 would be HIS budget range. He hopes to see one @ a show, soon
He also thought the use of "folding chair" sounded cheezy, a poor choice of words (he's a ol guy, used to cheap folding/collapsing chairs). He said the craft was really a punt boat, but agreed that was a little known distinction, so thought kayak was close. He had some concern with neoprene durability. This was after reading your description, he still had doubts.
This 70 yr old fellow has done it all & still doing it, keeping abreast of new materials. He wants to "touch" the covering, bottom line.. . He had no better idea on a name. His dad was a canoer & repaired the old canvas canoes. My friend is a avid canoer & has sea kayaked a few times.
I'd say he WAS your ideal target survey. I called up the page, gave him the mouse & left him alone to study the boat & text.
His opinions and 2 cents worth anyway. Hope it helps.
Can one be bought anywhere presently?

[RocknPine]

Hey Ted,
I do not have any for sale presently but should soon, (2-3 months). I'm sourcing production as we speak!
I will have a few models sooner for marketing.
Thanks for your Buddy's feedback!
Pete

[RocknPine]

I'm wondering if anyone can suggest fabric material type for the top portion of my folding boat? I'm fairly pleased with the neoprene coated nylon that I'm using for the bottom but it does not come in any colors, other than black, and it's expensive. I'd like to find a tough waterproof fabric in the 16 oz weight range.

[sal's Dad]

I like it! I have had Folboats, Kleppers, a Piece Boat, and this looks really good, for a variety of applications. Think folding dinghy, aboard ANY cruising boat...

Sal's Dad

[tspeer]

Cool - a folding scow!

It's not clear from your website just what the dimensions are. You should have some basic dimensions listed, such as the length and beam, and the length, width, and depth of the folded package.

It sounds like you've put all your effort into the P9 model, but a bigger 2-person version would be very useful. That would make it suitable as a dinghy on a cruising sailboat. You could take a person ashore, and be able to bring some cargo back to the boat.

[RocknPine]

Thanks for your comments. I'll plan to add the dimensions of the boat, maybe with our Solidwork's drawings.
We are considering a two place model. It will just take a little more time to put together because we will need to telescope the tubing to make it work and keep it compact. The single place design is all about keeping the boat light, compact, and quick to assemble. We expect folks that RV or live in smaller spaces, (apartments), might appreciate these features.
We are also developing a piggyback self contained trolling motor which will be controlled by a 4-way toggle switch.

[tranmkp]

very cool,

folding scow is neat (esoteric) looks like a skimmer/garvy/sneakbox..

pocket garvy - aqua slipper - slippercraft - teal - canvasback (may already be taken)

If I think of more Ill get back

[RocknPine]

Great ideas! I like the aqua slipper!

[sal's Dad]

Looks like a duck.

[kengrome]

Hi Pete,

I designed a folding dinghy a couple years ago before I registered with the Coast Guard as a manufacturer. They gave me lots of very important information about the way they define different classes of boats, and it makes a big difference how your boat is classified in terms of their requirements.

Boats classified as 'canoes/kayaks' have NO flotation requirements, but the next easiest class is 'rowboats' and they absolutely require flotation. Your design is similar enough to my original design in its dimensions that I think your boat will be called a 'rowboat' by the USCG and therefore you'll need to install flotation.

The USCG called my first design a rowboat too, so I redesigned it early in the game to fit it into the canoe/kayak class. In my case I needed the canoe/kayak classification for economy. I think it's rather late for your boat to be redesigned, and I don't think it makes sense to do this just to get it into the canoe/kayak classification. Your boat is different from mine and it targets a very different market. This is why I think you'll be better off to simply add the required flotation for the rowboat classification -- and comply with the additional labeling and other requirements for this class too of course.

Flotation is a 'good thing' anyways. In your boat I don't think it would take more than a couple chunks of closed cell polyethylene foam to make it comply with the rowboat requirements. You could probably use one piece as a seat bottom and the other as a seat back if you have it molded so that it fits nicely between and around your aluminum tubes. Note that I have not reviewed the requirements for foam flotation lately, and if this flotation must be installed 'permanently' instead of being removable this could create a new challenge for you ...

Here's a little bit of the info my USCG rep sent me to clarify the definition of the canoe/kayak classification and its requirements. This may help you and possibly others who may be designing their own boats for resale in the USA:

Mr. Grome,

The Coast Guard has come up with the following formula for determination whether a boat falls within the standards of a canoe/kayak;

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A watercraft designed to be manually propelled
or equipped with a low horsepower motor whose
ends do not have the transverse dimension greater
than 45% of the maximum beam and whose length
to beam ratio is:

Length 14 feet or less - Length/Beam Ratio 3:1 to 5:1
Length Over 14 feet to 16 feet - Length/Beam Ratio 4:1 to 6:1
Length Over 16 feet - Length/Beam Ratio 5:1 and greater
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For boats that fall within the above guidelines and considered and canoe/kayak then the only requirements applicable to the boat itself are the Primary Hull Identification Number and the Duplicate Hull Identification Number.