Folding Kayaks

[ancient kayaker]

Looks great, simpler, probably faster assembly than folding boats I've tried. Did not see any signs of pesky inflation requirements.

Not sure it's really a kayak though; beam is typical for 9 footer but ends look a bit blunt. I assume you have legal concerns regarding coastguard definitions and requirements but even puddle-paddling kayakers like me have certain expectations from a kayak, such as paddling ease and speed over stability of which you look to have lots. You don't want a lot of disappointed customers returning the boats so you need to decide which market this will succeed in.

The low-end small foldables are in the $600-1000 range, classics go for a lot more but offer performance. For fishing/shooting you might want to offer storage.

[RocknPine]

As it turns out our boat does meet the exception granted by the Coast Guard for Kayaks & Canoes. We do intend to offer sponsoons as accessories. These boats are really not intended for the typical kayaker (white water or sea kayaking). They are more of a general purpose boat for folks with space or time constraints. This would include anyone that wants to take a boat camping, hunting, fishing, or that has no room to store a full sized boat.
I could still use help with name suggestions.
Thanks,
Pete

[kengrome]

As it turns out our boat does meet the exception granted by the Coast Guard for Kayaks & Canoes.

Hi Pete,

This is great news!

I've never heard of an 'exception' to the USCG's definition of canoe/kayak. Can you explain this in greater detail?

As you know, the reason I'm asking is because I designed a tiny, cheap little folding dinghy a couple years and was going to manufacture it -- that is, until my USCG rep told me it would not comply with their definition of canoe/kayak because the width of my boat's ends were more than 45% of the boat's maximum width. This relationship seems to apply to your boat as well ...

But if there's an exception I don't know about that applies to your boat, then maybe it also applies to mine -- and then we can both celebrate the good news!

[RocknPine]

Hello Ken,
Here is what I have. This is not an exemption. It just means that our boats fit within the following definition of a kayak:
A canoe or kayak or similar watercraft is defined as: a watercraft designed to be manually
propelled or equipped with a low horsepower motor whose ends do not have a transverse
dimension greater than 45% of the maximum beam and whose length to beam ratio is as specified
below:
Length Length / Beam Ratio
14 Feet or Less 3:1 to 5:1
Over 14 Feet to 16 Feet 4:1 to 6:1
Over 16 Feet 5:1 to 8:1
An inflatable boat is defined as: any craft that achieves and maintains its intended shape and
buoyancy through the medium of inflation. This includes RIBs.
A sailboat is defined as: a boat designed or intended to use sails as the primary means of
propulsion.

The width of the end of our boat is 8" across. That is the distance between the two tangent points at the end of our boats. With a beam of 34" the transverse dimension is 23% of the maximum beam width.
Our boats assembled length is 9'-2". With a 34" beam that means we have a length to beam ratio of 3.2:1.

How are things going on your side of the world?
Pete

[Lt. Holden]

I think the intent of your design is very good as a general purpose "Knock About" (possible name) watercraft; hence my suggested name "EXPLORIST", this name was used for a short time by GARMIN (GPS) but I don't believe it is currently in use. It might be worthwhile to contact them, maybe offer an optional package with a small multi-function GPS. I think the self-contained trolling motor option has possibilities.
Optional flotation might consist of the seat design mentioned earlier or air filled bags fore and aft and/or alongside the seat. These might be inflated by a small (1 lb.) propane cylinder replenished by a small AC/DC compressor or at a gas station. The optional outriggers you mentioned might be inflated in the same way. As a one-time Tarheel I wish you well in pursuing your dream. If you are able secure suitable suppliers I might be interested in marketing it in the Northeast/New England area.

[kengrome]

The width of the end of our boat is 8" across. That is the distance between the two tangent points at the end of our boats.

Hi Pete, thanks for the explanation!

Not to be dense about this, but how do you determine where these tangent points are located? Do you draw a transverse line across the end of the boat and make it touch the hull at the centerline, then mark the two points on either side of the centerline where the transverse line is no longer touching the hull?

It would have been nice if I had had this information two years ago when I re-designed my little folding boat to make it comply with these rules. My re-designed boat did not perform well, but at least it complied with the 'rules'! Just goes to show you how rules can make things worse sometimes instead of better.

How are things going on your side of the world?

It's hot and humid over here, and I'm designing more than building lately, but that's fine beause I enjoy the design work too ...

[jeff spinney]

hey ted.jeff spinn here. keep listen to them old guys. when they say come with me,,,, do it , there smarter than us when it comes to fun. jeff spinney

[Dragons]

If there is anyone out there that has a body for the Klepper or the ability to make one, I would be very interested. I have the frames for two of them lying about but the skins are toast, Re: adding flotation, the Klepper used the flotation to tighten the skin in the outside that worked very well. I only wish they had used less biodegradable materials to do so

[ancient kayaker]

I did a Google search for "klepper replacement skin" and got lots of hits. I gather the genuine article from Klepper is about $2000 which is a lot less than a new boat and there are sources of decent skins for maybe half of that. It may depend on which model(s) you have.

[Dragons]

Sigh! When I bought mine new boats from Germany were $1,700 complete.
I have two Arieus 2 s and one set of sails, each boat has the rudder and stuff, kept high and dry all this time in a garage but I have no real idea about critter attacks etc. When the decks fell apart I put them away and have not taken them out since as I had no way to replace the hulls.

[tinhorn]

Originally Posted by sal's Dad

Looks like a duck.

That's IT! That's the perfect name! Go ahead - just TRY to forget that name.

[kengrome]

Hi Pete,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news (for you or for me) but if my USCG representative is correct, neither your boat nor mine can be classified as a canoe/kayak -- and basic (not level) flotation is required for "rowboats".

When you posted your claim that your boat will be classified as a canoe/kayak, I was still not clear how your boat's "tangent points" could be only 8 inch apart, so I sent an email to my USCG representative for clarification. Here's what he had to say:

Look at figure 1 you sent me. Assuming the black line at the juncture of the transom and sidewall is at a 45 degree angle to the centerline of the boat, the point where the black line touches the boat is the point from where the width measurement is taken to both sides of the transom. This is considered the surface facing aft. So, any point along the surface facing aft between these two 45 degree tangent points is considered transom surface.

I have attached the same "figure 1" to this post so you can see what he is referring to. Basically he says the tangent line that touches the boat MUST be at a 45 degree angle ... and unfortunately if you apply this rule to your boat, your tangent points will be much further apart than 8 inches.

When you made your "tangent points" post earlier in this thread, I presumed those points to be located where the ends of your boat "break away" from a transverse plane that touches your boat's end at the centerline. In other words, if you push one end of your boat up against a vertical wall, and make its centerline perpendicular to that wall, it will touch the wall for a distance of only 8 inches -- 4 inches on either side of the boat's centerline. The problem with this definition is that it is wrong ...

My USCG rep says these tangent lines MUST be oriented at 45 degrees to the boat's centerline!


So Pete ... if your USCG representative has given you a definition that disagrees with the one mine gave me, please post it here, then maybe we can get to the bottom of this issue. At the moment I believe I finally understand how the USCG defines "the width of the ends of the boat", but different USCG reps may have different understandings of these regulations, so it might make sense to get a consensus here.

I'm not trying to get these USCG reps into trouble, nor am I trying to create problems for you. On the contrary, I am actually trying to save you from ordering a bunch of your boats from your chosen manufacturer only to have them "blocked from entry" by the USCG because they are do not have the required flotation.

As far as my boats are concerned, I do not want to start producing them -- thinking they will be classified as canoes/kayaks -- only to learn later that they will not. Non-compliance issues like this can make or break a business!

By the way, my rep also said this about flotation, probably because he thinks I'm trying too hard to get my boat into the canoe/kayak classification:

Boats that are rated manually propelled or powered by less than 2 HP fall under the Modified (Basic) Flotation. This means that after the boat has been submerged for 18 hours some part of the boat must be above the surface of the water.

I think they drill holes in the boat in different locations before they begin their flotation test, apparently to let air in. This kind of ruins any possibility of using beach balls or other air-trapping devices to comply with the flotation requirements -- a good reason to use foam I guess.

You're lucky, you can have your foam molded as a seat bottom, backrest, etc. because your boat doesn't have to fold down as small as mine. But my boat is supposed to fold to less than one inch thick, and this is impossible unless I redesign the hull (again) and make it into a legally compliant canoe/kayak ...