Boat Design Forums  |  Boat Design Directory  |  Boat Design Gallery  |  Boat Design Book Store  |  Thanks to Our Site Sponsors
  #31  
Old 05-26-2016, 01:26 PM
Skyak Skyak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Rep: 152 Posts: 1,143
Location: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
-----------------
That is completely wrong-the 23 is somewhere around 60-70 grand and there are other boats below 6 figures. The bit about "only lends his name and support to others efforts" is completely wrong. Hugh has been 100% hands on in the development of DSS for years(from the very first one meter model!) and on the Quant 23 since its inception. However, he did visit me while I was building the Fire Arrow and gave me great encouragement.......
The Q23 is a one design- I would not pass the torch to the Waszp alone.... There are bound to be many smaller versions of comfortable, easy to sail ,easy to foil boats that can foil in very light air. My only concern about the Waszp is that I'm not sure it fits in the "easy to sail, easy to foil" type that the Q23 does. But hopefully it will be able to sell for about half of a Mach II.

click-
Doug, no reason to get emotional -I WANT to see foiling progress to good low price one designs but am just calling it as I see it.

60 to $70K for the quant 23 is quite reasonable. Is that something you know or are estimating? I have not found price listed anywhere and that price would get press. What other boats has he done that retail under $100k?

My comment about Hugh was about his financial involvement not engineering -he is a supplier (NA), not a principle. Of course Hugh is capable of the 14fter you suggest but Hugh works on what he is paid to work on. I have not and would not diminish his contribution to his designs -of course he is hands on. I am just saying that if you are looking for a 14fter foiling scow to Hughs design, first you have to find a builder to pay Hugh to start the project and as boats get smaller, margins get smaller.

Waszp being designed to conform with Moth class brings strengths and weaknesses. The benefit of having an established class from day one is big. It is a challenging boat to sail but I don't think that will be a big negative. It will also be faster than boats that are easier to sail which will help.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 05-26-2016, 03:55 PM
Skyak Skyak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Rep: 152 Posts: 1,143
Location: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyak View Post
Doug, no reason to get emotional -I WANT to see foiling progress to good low price one designs but am just calling it as I see it.

60 to $70K for the quant 23 is quite reasonable. Is that something you know or are estimating? I have not found price listed anywhere and that price would get press. What other boats has he done that retail under $100k?

My comment about Hugh was about his financial involvement not engineering -he is a supplier (NA), not a principle. Of course Hugh is capable of the 14fter you suggest but Hugh works on what he is paid to work on. I have not and would not diminish his contribution to his designs -of course he is hands on. I am just saying that if you are looking for a 14fter foiling scow to Hughs design, first you have to find a builder to pay Hugh to start the project and as boats get smaller, margins get smaller.

Waszp being designed to conform with Moth class brings strengths and weaknesses. The benefit of having an established class from day one is big. It is a challenging boat to sail but I don't think that will be a big negative. It will also be faster than boats that are easier to sail which will help.
I found it! Quant 23 "starts at 60-65k euro excluding VAT" (VAT differs by country 20 to 27%)

65000x1.23VATx1.12D/E=$89,500

So you could buy a quant 23 for under $100k but I suspect most owners will pay more.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 05-26-2016, 10:09 PM
OzFred OzFred is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Rep: 16 Posts: 105
Location: Earth
How does a thread start with a 7' 9" "foiling" Opti and end up talking about a $100k+ 23' scow? Other than the "F" word and they're both sailing boats, they have nothing in common.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 05-27-2016, 12:33 PM
Skyak Skyak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Rep: 152 Posts: 1,143
Location: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzFred View Post
How does a thread start with a 7' 9" "foiling" Opti and end up talking about a $100k+ 23' scow? Other than the "F" word and they're both sailing boats, they have nothing in common.
The same way all threads become about the expensive foiling scow -the "D" poster.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 05-27-2016, 12:41 PM
Doug Lord's Avatar
Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
Flight Ready
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 1362 Posts: 13,702
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyak View Post
The same way all threads become about the expensive foiling scow -the "D" poster.
-----
Riiight.. I suppose that explains your posts 21,29,31,32 and 34?! How silly can you get.......
__________________
yes, it is a Revolution
WOLF-daughter of fire arrow
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 05-27-2016, 09:37 PM
Skyak Skyak is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Rep: 152 Posts: 1,143
Location: United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
-----
Riiight.. I suppose that explains your posts 21,29,31,32 and 34?! How silly can you get.......
Extremely silly! And I made the "D" comment in to poke some fun, but looking back it appears you did turn the conversation to the quant 23 at the top of page 2, post 16.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 05-28-2016, 06:06 PM
OzFred OzFred is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Rep: 16 Posts: 105
Location: Earth
Hasn't anyone looked at this seriously? Glass–covered wooden foils? No method of controlling height or AoA of the main foil? No method of adjusting rudder angle? Extremely short rudder "strut"? Extremely inefficient foil shapes? Winglets? Really?

And best of all, no way to remove the main foil once the centreboard is inserted and the foil attached. Is it supposed to be attached and removed as part of rigging and de–rigging the boat?

All lift from the rudder will be transmitted through the locking spring on the top pintle to the top gudgeon. There is no indication of how lift from the main foil is transmitted through the centreboard case.

It's an April fools joke that missed it's deadline but was published anyway.

Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-30-2016, 03:35 AM
projetdared projetdared is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Rep: 10 Posts: 18
Location: FRANCE
HI guys, hi doug.

Don't take it too seriously. I know phillipe and this project was just to show something fun during " la semaine affoilante" at Quiberon.

Gurval
__________________
www.projet-dared.com
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-30-2016, 08:38 AM
Doug Lord's Avatar
Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
Flight Ready
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 1362 Posts: 13,702
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Optifoil

Hi, Gurval! Have they done any testing yet? I gather that altitude control is by moving crew weight which seems like it has a good chance of working.
Any more info would be appreciated!
__________________
yes, it is a Revolution
WOLF-daughter of fire arrow
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:00 AM
daiquiri's Avatar
daiquiri daiquiri is online now
Engineering and Design
 
Join Date: May 2004
Rep: 3380 Posts: 5,360
Location: Italy (Garda Lake) and Croatia (Istria)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
I gather that altitude control is by moving crew weight which seems like it has a good chance of working.
I disagree with that, Doug. It is extremely hard (I am struggling to not use the word "impossible") to control the dynamic stability of that configuration by moving the crew weight.

Don't know if you have ever sailed an optimist... I did in my youngest days, and it goes like this - your legs are pushing upwards on the hiking straps, feet in mid-air. Your butt is pushing down hard on the gunwhale. You can only move your upper body and have neither the agility nor the extent of longitudinal body translation required to shift the CoG of the boat quickly enough to compensate its movements. You are left with controlling the pitch, yaw and roll of the foiling opti with the sail tension and rudder only - which is theoretically possible but I wan't to see it happen in the real life.

Cheers

P.S. - If we are talking about fully flying the boat, of course.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:22 AM
Doug Lord's Avatar
Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
Flight Ready
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 1362 Posts: 13,702
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Optifoil

Slavi, never sailed an Opti but spent a few years in a 9' Dyer Dhow(pix below). If you look at the foils on a kiteboard or foiling windsurfer the distance(footprint) between the main foil and aft foil(footprint) is half,or so, of the footprint of the Opti and if you watch the guys foiling there is very little detectable movement. In other words, the foil system on the Opti will lend itself even better to crew weight altitude control. And then there's the comment in one of the links above that weight-shifting was what the designers intended for altitude control....
Attached Thumbnails
Foil Optimist-windsurfer-foil.jpg  Foil Optimist-optimist-foiler.jpg  
Attached Images
 
__________________
yes, it is a Revolution
WOLF-daughter of fire arrow
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:34 AM
projetdared projetdared is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Rep: 10 Posts: 18
Location: FRANCE
Yes that's true, it's hard to have a good weight transfer on a optimist (same for the other boats) but it is possible. It's like every systems, if you just can have a small input on it but if it's enough for control, that works.
At my humble optinion, the good way to do that is to use 2 foils (rudder and daggerboard) with positive angle of attack but a llitle bit more for the rudder.
You can see on this video that the girl is behind the daggerboard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlhD6G_6Bxs
__________________
www.projet-dared.com
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:38 AM
daiquiri's Avatar
daiquiri daiquiri is online now
Engineering and Design
 
Join Date: May 2004
Rep: 3380 Posts: 5,360
Location: Italy (Garda Lake) and Croatia (Istria)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
If you look at the foils on a kiteboard or foiling windsurfer the distance(footprint) between the main foil a aft foil is probably 25% of the footprint of the Opti and if you watch the guys foiling there is very little detectable movement.
I wouldn't use kite and windsurf boards for comparison because they are very different kind of animals, relatively easy to control due to the body-mass to board-mass ratio. Basically, the CoG of kitesurfer's body is pretty much the CoG of the board + windsurfer. Similar situation for the windsurfers.
Furthermore, the apparent wind is very high (compared to the true wind), so the small true-wind perturbations are effectively damped by the high speed of the board.

In case of an Opti, the boat's weight is comparable to the body weight of the kids sailing it, hence a longitudinal body movement 2X is necessary to shift the boat's weight by X (in percentage). With their feet hooked to the hiking straps, it is a very hard task - absolutely not comparable to kiteboards and windsurfers.
Foiling speed is also necessarily lower in this case (just consider the weight and the anti-aerodynamic shape of an Opti boat), which means that any true-wind perturbance has a much bigger influence on the boat's dynamics. Hence a hypothetical foiling Optimist with that foil layout would likely require quite the oposite to what is available - quick and ample range of body movements, coordinated with an efficient sail and rudder control.

But that's just my two cents worth. I've been wrong many times before, and might be wrong in this case too. Time will tell.

Cheers
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:42 AM
Doug Lord's Avatar
Doug Lord Doug Lord is offline
Flight Ready
 
Join Date: May 2009
Rep: 1362 Posts: 13,702
Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida
Optifoil

I disagree because of the huge difference in footprint---and because the designer thinks it would work.....
__________________
yes, it is a Revolution
WOLF-daughter of fire arrow
Reply With Quote


  #45  
Old 05-30-2016, 09:52 AM
daiquiri's Avatar
daiquiri daiquiri is online now
Engineering and Design
 
Join Date: May 2004
Rep: 3380 Posts: 5,360
Location: Italy (Garda Lake) and Croatia (Istria)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Lord View Post
I disagree because of the huge difference in footprint---and because the designer thinks it would work.....
Anything can work in a very specific environment and under a fixed or narrow range of design conditions.
Usable things have to work and be controllable in the off-design conditions too.

Cheers
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Optimist AutoCad Vives Boat Design 16 04-13-2016
09:00 AM 
Not an Optimist so it's a Pessimist DCockey Boat Design 3 07-11-2013
05:15 AM 
New Rig for Optimist Doug Lord Sailboats 3 05-04-2011
04:07 PM 
Optimist Pram with.....spinnaker! Doug Lord Sailboats 0 12-24-2010
09:59 PM 
optimist pram restoration kayakn Boatbuilding 10 12-14-2008
06:15 AM 

Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:49 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Web Site Design and Content Copyright ©1999 - 2017 Boat Design Net