Dutch barges

OK, so perhaps this is the right thread for my question (having inadvertently upset a few folk on the Thames Barge one!)

If I want a barge to cruise canals or liveaboard, but also need occasional coastal transits, then what is necesary to avoid the 'embarrasment' of a horizontal mast as pictured in posts above?

I like the Andrew Wolstenholme design on the link below (er, but not the price tag although fitout and finish do look pretty special).

http://www.western-horizon.co.uk/boat_details.php?boat_id=144

How far is it practical to go with a 'modified dutch barge' concept? That is, double chine hull rather than pancake-flat bottom, and potentailly an RCD Cat A rating. Windows obviously need attention but with size reduction, triple laminated glass and steel storm shutters that ought to be manageable.

The idea is something like Dream Catcher but 15' longer but only slightly more beam if any (want to fit in Brittany's canals....) that also has a (lowerable) mast up front.

Can a long, retractable keel be incorporated under the sole for extra stability offshore without compromising draft for canals?

 

Nothing wrong with your concept.
Since you are not carrying cargo you don't really need such a full hull anyway. Barges are barges live-aboard boats designed as such can compromise on the cargo capacity and offer seaworthiness and better handling and lower wave resistance than the barges.

There's a few designers on this board that would design such a craft for you.

 

Most Dutch barges are ok for coastal work within limits and are usually restricted by insurance to force 3 or 4 winds. It will cost a lot more to get a Cat A that may well be unnecessary and compromise canal work. I know a lot of people who regularily cross the English Channel without problem... mostly, it was my friends's Skutsje caught out surfing in a sudden storm off Ramsgate!

I own a 26 mtr 1920 Dutch Luxemotor and I've sailed Thames and skippered Dutch barges for thirty years on the East UK coast and across to Holland, Belgium and France and never known a capsize although Dutch barges being narrow do roll so square bilge corners like the Thames barges can be an advantage, in fact bilge keels are often fitted to DB chines. You could fit internal twin dagger boards each side as I've seen or fore and aft and combine them as spud legs for anchoring in the canals.

You do need to consider length because of commercial/large pleasure craft requirements of crew and equipment so very roughly that needs to be under 24 mtrs or less than 50 tonnes but I recall that up to 15 mtrs is less onerous with some proposed new legislation. I can recommend the Dutch Barge Association for good up to date info.

 

Double chines are common in dutch style barges......see these......

http://www.euroshipservices.nl/english/default.htm?http%3A//www.euroshipservices.nl/english/standaardpakketten.asp%3FPakketID%3D116

Ask them if any have been built to Cat A.

A "retractable keel", might be a centerboard, might be a lifting keel, might be something else. No it won't fit under the floor, and no it won't do anything much for stability.

 

Yes Tad, the Euroship barges also appeal to me. My concern with all barges is roll when offshore - but if keels are impractical or ineffectual for barges, and stabilisers are a bit over the top for them, it might be better to be a 'fair weather offshore cruiser' only, and forget about any passage making.

And a 24m steel barge could be tricky or expensive to RORO. So it probably makes sense to sell the barge in Europe when 'finished' with Euro canals, and re-build in USA for ICW great circle/Inside Passage where a barge is probably not optimal anyway.

I'll just need to pick a 'popular' sized barge to take delivery of at sailaway stage, do a quality fitout (pay designer or NA for systems drawings to help with that) and hope that the PIGS can fly (Ie Euro zone reverses its current downward financial spiral) by the time I sell.

 

If you mean rolling in a sea, I think you will find that barges (as a rule) are too stable to be comfortable. In this case some weight on deck and a big heavy mast will increase comfort.....but of course this also reduces ultimate stability. Which is part of the reason barge forms aren't normally first choice for offshore work.

A well built barge will be just fine for 2-3 day coastal passages with decent weather. Shipping across the Atlantic should be simple and you own the market on barges when you go to sell her in North America. There could actually be money in shipping and marketing the right product into NA, and you could own the demonstrator.

 

These guys are building them here, now:

http://www.amazonboatcompany.com/

See my models here:

Sons Creative




By the way Brian, it's easy to upset folks here. Don't let it get to you.

 

I quite agree, some people load ballast but after the initial stiffness the rolling can get worse but leeboards and daggerboards can improve it a bit. Usually rolling only happens when the waves are on the beam so changing course and zigzagging or steering into wash will make it a lot more comfortable, you have to be prepared for it but I wouldn't say it was a major problem.

http://www.spallsatsea.com/ Timothy Spall is currently doing a UK circumnavigation in his Dutch barge. You might be able to watch the TV programmes on the internet. See the Peter Nicholls Boats link.

 

Ahh, Dreamer I'm past getting depressed by what people think but at the same time don't intend to be obnoxious. I can have as short a fuse as any grumpy old man so I just have to remember to have a chuckle and not to over-react.

It will be interesting to see how the NA market likes the Amazon 50. It has some good features but I think the Thomas series isn't necessarily the best starting point. It probably needs a ranges of styles to ascertain the 'taste' or 'flavour' that sells. At this stage 'the right product' for NA isn't clear to me at all. I think the website needs a plan layout added, and also other dimensions, engine/tankage and performance/speed.

Tad - Ok, the more posts I read the more I realise that I don't know or have not not absorbed properly from a a fair bit of reading over a short period. If I now have it right, the roll motion of a barge is low amplitude but fast and jerky - quite undesireable. So watch the weather and hole up someplace until it settles enough for a 'dash' along the coast.

The time, expense of equipping for an Atlantic crossing not to mention the possibility of seriously unfavourable weather all point towards doing what you suggest. Except that I am quite sure the market will have long moved on by the time I get there, have covered the miles that I'd like to do, and look to sell. I'd be older and even grumpier by then so best that someone else does the demonstrator gig.

My 'planning' at present involves trying to accommodate the best features (for my taste) from 3 designers into an SOR, with 24m LOA and canal friendly beam, draft and air draft. Mostly that means max of 4.5m, 1.2m and 2.5m respectively. A bonus would be beam 4.3m, draft 1.1m but for just one canal on the wish list, is it worth it? Then the spiral could turn tighter for UK wide beam canal optimum - 18m LOA and beam 3.8m. Aaagh! 'Boston disease' - going around in circles without progressing anywhere! Decision please then move on.... I have actually made some progress - I no longer desire something that will fit into a shipping container.

And just as I had figured steel made the most sense someone tells me that that maintenance on steel will kill me, and that alum is the only metal to use. Cheaper in the long run. But obviously electrics and grounding has to be done right - a good idea anyway. Something to get into on other threads lest I inadvertently hijack this one!

 

Brian

We'll see how it goes with this boat in NA.

 

Jetten Bommelaer 1900

Brian

Here is a sea-going barge(?) that almost meets your specification. Air draft (3.3m) is too high for some French canals, but would it would squeeze through most of them:

http://www.jettenyachting.nl/Bommelaer/01/1900_01.php

Interestingly, it is RCD Cat A. Rather expensive, though. I think they list them at EUR 1.2 million.

 

Thanks Euro, an interesting if somewhat expensive option. Probably comprehensively equipped, including stabilizers, and may well be competitive in the steel passage-maker sector. But I prefer Tad's Passagemaker Lite 56 in terms of styling and specs. Its a long way north of typical Dutch barges. Do you know what top speed/cruise speed is projected?

 

Bommelaer

The constructor hasn't given any speed figures, so I'll have to guess. The 1500 model was tested in Motorboot magazine, and had a top speed of 9.6 kn, cruising around 8 kn, with a 180hp motor.

I GUESS the 1900 should have a maximum of 10.5 - 11 kn, cruise at 9 kn, given that it is about 17% longer at the waterline. Maybe.

The Passagemaker Lite also looks like a good option; right size and looks nice.

 

I'd say that was an unhelpful and rather biased view. Steel boats properly detailed are very low maintenance. Modern paint systems and decent construction make steel a very reasonable choice.
There's one 100+ year old steel boats in the marina here and another 80 year old they are both in great shape and more or less inert, you cant find any corrosion inside or out and the owners spend a day or two touching up each year, no more.
I doubt we'll see alloy boats at that age with the same miles on the clock.
New steel boats can be built even more easily and maintained more easily than those early vessels. Liberal use of stainless steels has made steel commercial vessels much more durable particularly cosmetically.
The differences between alloy and steel are more complex and should be considered with the full picture not on an offhand comment so take heart and don't dismiss any material on someone else's bias.

Your stability issue should be solvable, scows and barges have operated offshore. It's a matter of getting both the roll gyradius and the stabilty curve in both the safe and the comfortable zone. Its easier as the vessel gets larger. It just depends on the compromises you are prepared to make in departure from your 'ideal' barge.

 

I'd agree with you here Mike, whole hardly. Particularily after having the experience of maintaining a 60' alum ChrisCraft Roamer. Just isolating copper bottom paints from the alum hull was a a multi-coat experience itself.