Dutch barge model

[leggers]

Hi
I know people on this site are probably fed up to the port holes with members asking for Dutch barge designs. I've visited lots of the post's offering advice and links to sites but I'm wanting to produce a full CAD model in Soildworks of a Dutch barge that is capable of being DIY built. There are plenty of plans/kits out there that can be bought but I'm wanting to produce a model including bill of materials, stress calculations, etc that is free for anyone to have a copy of and have a go at building (I don't want to pick peoples brains and design something then sell it). I'm an engineer and have access to software etc for modeling but I know very very little about boat design. Is there anyone out there that can offer any help/advice on hull design, engine size, bow thrusters, etc. I'm wanting to be able to use the broad canal's of UK and Europe so a hull design that is capable of crossing the channel and has 4 berths (maybe 6).
Thanks

[Tad]

Hummm......you have a problem.......

You need a naval architect but want him or her to design a ship for no money....you might find a student willing, but often students are busy.....and you end up with a student design and all that implies......

You could copy something that's been published....but that will get you in trouble......

The best I can suggest is draw something, post pictures or drawings, and request comments.....that will often draw people out....they may not be constructive or cohesive comments.....but that's how it goes.....

I'm guessing Channel Crossing might be ISO Cat B?

Good luck.....

[EuroCanal]

Originally Posted by Tad

Hummm......you have a problem.......
I'm guessing Channel Crossing might be ISO Cat B?

A cat C is considered good enough for a quick dash across in the summer - it's only 20km.

Timothy Spall's barge has been all round the UK and Ireland - it hasn't seen fresh water for a long time. His barge was "built to exceed cat B", according to the boat builder, but still looks like an inland boat:

http://www.steelboats.com/widebeam_barges/FCN_barge.htm

I wonder how the folding wooden wheelhouse would perform in 4m waves ...

There's always a compromise in Dutch barges - do you want to see the Canal de Midi (which connects the Med to the Atlantic), with 1.4m draft and 2.4m air draft, or do you want a more sea-worthy barge, which will stick to the larger canals (even then there's only 1.8m draft and 3.5m bridge clearance)?

I think the broad-beam canals of the UK are more restrictive. Have a look at Colin Stone's site. He had "Kei" built in the Netherlands and then sailed it back to Oxford. At one point he had to fill up all tanks and add 22 barrels of temporary water ballast to get under a low bridge.

http://www.luxe-motor-kei.co.uk/

... stress calculations, ... hull design, ... engine size ...

Stress calculations should be to EU/ISO rules (Cat B or Cat C).
Hull: Traditionally flat-bottom with rounded chines, but a shallow V might work better at sea.
Engine size: 5bhp per tonne as a rough guide for an initial estimate. You might need more if it's light or if you want to go up the Rhine or Soane, then again, some manage with a lot less.

Realistically, it's cheaper to buy a ready-built barge, or a half-finished 'sail-away'. If you want a custom barge, it's much easier to go to a specialised barge builder such as:

http://www.euroshipservices.nl/

They will be able to certify the vessel more easily, and it will be built professionally - compound curves, fitted joinery, etc.

If you really want to do the whole design yourself, then:
1) decide which sort of barge you need - inland or coaster, aft cabin of not, all-round deck or not, ...
2) decide the basic parameters: LOA, beam, draft, ...
3) design a hull (or copy an old existing design), test design (model or computer)
4) work out plate pressures (ISO standard)
(you aren't required to stick to ISO rules for a home built, but it's as good a guide as any for the calculations)
5) decide the frame spacing and stringer spacing, and resulting plate thickness (ISO standard)
6) buy metal, cut it, weld it, paint it, add ballast, tanks, engine, rudder, controls, generator, etc.
7) find a mooring
8) go cruising

[leggers]

Hi
thanks for your comments. I've looked into the possibilities of buying a ready built or part built 'sail away' but the cost's is a little more than I can realistically afford.
I'm looking at this as a long term project and know there's a lot of hard work involved. A good friend of mine is a certified welder and has offered his services free (apart from materials) as I help him out with projects from time to time and I've access to a modern engineering workshop.
The first thing I need is some hull lines and basic hull shapes to have a play around with, I don't know if anyone out there can point me in the right direction just to get the basic shape to have a play around with then put some idea's on the forum to get comments.
My plan is to use it on the broad canals of UK but mostly the Europe broad canals including the Canal Du Midi and if possible the Rhine.
1. I want to keep the draft to a minimum below 1.0M and if possible with a shallow V bottom.
2. I do want to keep to the ISO standards.
3. The sea worthiness is just to get me across short stretches of water like the channel or short hops around the coast (in calm conditions only)
4. Rear cabin and I would prefer it not to be collapsable but if in needs to be for the air draft to navigate the canals then so be it.
5. I've not decided on LOA and beam yet that will be decided on when I start modelling but it needs to be big enough to live aboard for long periods of time as it will be where I intend to live.

[EuroCanal]

Most barge designers don't publish their plans free of charge. Some of them have a limited range of drawings available for free, but usually not the important hull sections. You could try this site:

http://www.fettben.com/3d.html

They have a 3d model of a barge which may suit you. You can use it as inspiration for your own design, or buy the full plans from them.

Also check out sales of recent barges - you will find photos of hulls, which may give you an idea of the general design.

[Brian@BNE]

Originally Posted by leggers

Hi
...........
5. I've not decided on LOA and beam yet that will be decided on when I start modelling but it needs to be big enough to live aboard for long periods of time as it will be where I intend to live.

Well, LOA and beam are just as important as draft and airdraft in terms of limitations on where you can go. I have some notes from trawling lots of barge info, and one is that for UK broad canals the optimum/maximum size is 60' x 12.5'. Any bigger and some locks wont be long enough/wide enough for you. And Tom Sommers Canal Guidebook notes that for Brittany, where the canals aren't the 'standard' Freycinet size, and the max. dimensions are 25 meters length, 4.50 m beam, 1.20 m draft and 2.50 m height. But he also says that seasonal low/high water can reduce draft/ airdraft.

A month ago I visited St Jean de Losne, at the junction of the Saone and Burgundy canal. Its kinda 'canal boat central'. The bigger steel barges mostly dont seem to go anywhere, and have permanent moorings. I don't see the point of that - a house with water frontage would be much better. The boats that do seem to cruise a lot are typically GRP. Lots for sale by brokers such as H2O, and some rental companies use them too. Part of the story is that navigating the locks with just 2 people can be really challenging - better to have at least 4 and in places even more people.

So, if you want to actually cruise the canals, check out the used 'plastic' boats as you will be far in front of a new build budget-wise. There will be still plenty of work to get 'tired' interiors updated. If actual building is an equally important part of the total project then fine, but remember max dimensions for intended destinations.

A new build steel barge with well thought out GA can be a lot smaller than a typical barge conversion and still deliver 4-6 berths easily. There are some licencing advantages in not exceeding 15m LOA also.

[EuroCanal]

Originally Posted by Brian@BNE

... for Brittany, where the canals aren't the 'standard' Freycinet size, and the max. dimensions are 25 meters length, 4.50 m beam, 1.20 m draft and 2.50 m height. But he also says that seasonal low/high water can reduce draft/ airdraft.

Interesting - I didn't know there were narrower canals there. I don't think they belong to the 'official' canal network (the VNF-managed canal system). Most of the VNF canals have a 'guaranteed' level which varies by +/- 10cm between mid March and mid-November.

Originally Posted by Brian@BNE

The bigger steel barges mostly dont seem to go anywhere, and have permanent moorings. I don't see the point of that - a house with water frontage would be much better.

I think these barges are treated as 'second homes'. The owners work in Paris or wherever, then use them as a weekend residence. Some of them will buy a 'permis de navigation' vignette for two weeks at a time and use them for a short period in the summer. This works out much cheaper than a year long permis. It's also more difficult to find temporary moorings for larger barges.

Originally Posted by Brian@BNE

The boats that do seem to cruise a lot are typically GRP. Lots for sale by brokers such as H2O, and some rental companies use them too. Part of the story is that navigating the locks with just 2 people can be really challenging - better to have at least 4 and in places even more people.

I think plastic boats are more practical in central France, as there's no cargo traffic in that area, the speed limits are low, and the locks are small. As you go down stream, along the Moselle and Rhine, you will find a lot more steel barges; they are much more robust. When you are next to a 2,000 tonne gravel barge in a 110m lock, you want something that can take being squeezed against the wall if needs be. On the faster rivers, you are likely to hit debris at speed.

Originally Posted by Brian@BNE

There are some licencing advantages in not exceeding 15m LOA also.

I am not sure if the license advantage applies to foreign-registered boats. In Luxembourg all boats under 20m are treated the same way. For a British resident, it's fairly easy to get a British license which is valid in Europe. I think it is limited to 24m.

One advantage of smaller boats is a cheaper boat license (if the LOA x Beam is less than 60m2), cheaper mooring and cheaper/free lock fees (if less than 18m x 3.6m on the Moselle, for example). On the other hand, boats over 20m have priority, and sometimes higher speed limits, on the bigger canals.

[leggers]

Hi
thanks for your feedback, I've not had chance to do much research this weekend. I looked at the Fettben website (nice boats) thanks for the link.
I need to do a bit more digging around but 20m x 4.0m looks about the right size for what I want. I'm just checking out the size restrictions in the canals around the area where I plan to build which will be Yorkshire (hopefully sooner rather than later). Is there a website that has all the information on lock fee's/sizes within Europe ?

[Dean Smith]

if you put up your contact info we may have something
you have no pm or email enabled.

[leggers]

I've enabled my email (I think) but not sure how to activate PM ?

[Boat Design Net Moderator]

PM will activate automatically the day after you have 5 posts on the public forum (this is to keep spammers from registering to send members spam via PM too easily; sorry the few bad apples make things more difficult for the good guys sometimes)

[cthippo]

Who besides Selway Fisher has barge plans? I continue to be interested in this rype of boat for my Kayak tender.

Also, on a not really related note, is there a consensus on minimum deck camber for boats?

[EuroCanal]

Originally Posted by leggers

Is there a website that has all the information on lock fee's/sizes within Europe ?

In France, the canals are managed by VNF. They delegate to 7 'Directions Interregionales/Regionales'. Here is a link to a canal map, which shows who runs what:

http://www.vnf.fr/vnf/img/cms/Touris...1103241436.pdf

This gives you the web site for each region, where you have specific details about the gabarit of each canal. IN GENERAL, 3.5m air draft, 1.7m draft, 30m x 5m will allow you to use all the main canals of the Alsace, Lorraine, Paris, Calais. Some of the canals of Bourgogne, Midi and Loire are smaller.

I attached a PDF of French canals, published by VNF. Any canal with a black outline will be OK for the dimensions above. The others are generally a bit smaller.

I also attached a PDF of the Continental European network. The dimensions mentioned will be OK for all the transport canals shown here.

Locks are free in France (you pay an annual fee to use the canals). Here in Luxembourg/Germany the small locks are free, anything over 18x3.3x1.5m pays 4.50 euro per eclusage (pay cash at the lock - sometimes they don't bother for small boats). I'm not sure about other countries.

[leggers]

Hi Eurocanal
thanks for the information that will be a great help, I'm going to have to make a definate descision on size and try to get some idea's modelled up and post them on the forum for some comments.

[Brian@BNE]

leggers
here is a useful site for UK
http://www.barging.co.uk/ukcruising.htm