Dutch Barge long distance cruisers

[mwatts]

Originally Posted by SamSam

Do they ever work on the smaller canal barges that people live on?
What time is it there, should'nt you be sleeping?

It's 15:50 over here. I should be working...
They don't work that often on the smaller canal barges anymore. Those small barges are becoming more and more scarce, as it's not really profitable to operate one, not enough to sustain a family. They don't have any advantages anymore over trucks (with polish drivers)...

There are only a couple of "small" barges left that operate on some of the smaller canals and can get thru some of the smaller locks.

But I guess the principles and hull shape are still the same. It's all just a lot bigger now.

[SamSam]

"It's 15:50 over here." I have a 24 hour clock and had to take it out to the workshop. It frustrated the family too much. This is what they always did when they looked at it....

[RCardozo]

I have been reading these posts and there is a lot of confusion about these vessels. I own the "Morgenster" ("Morning Star" in Dutch). She is a Dutch 73' sailing barge built in 1893 in Leiderdorp Holland. She is constructe of hammered iron plates rivetted together. This is similar to mild steel. These vessels were built to haul smaller cargo loads in canals rivers and coastal areas. I am in Baltimore on The Chesepeake bay. The bay is a shallow estuary similar to the former inland seas of Holland. My vessel was built before the combustion engine took over so it is sail powered. The mast is on a hinge so it can be lowered to go under bridges and sell produce in town via the canal system. Being a cargo vessel the design is to maximize blockage for cargo. Lots of space, easy in and easy out. The flat bottom reduced draft and allowed the boats to beach at low tide load cargo and then float off at high tide. My draft is 3'. The leeboards on the sides were used to avoid the maintenance and inconvenience of a center well and they also utilize an airfoil curve to assist in windward performance. When power came on the scene the hull shape changed with more pointed bows and no leeboards. Since these boats were carrying cargo they were very heavily loaded. The big rounded bow and stern added buoyancy to keep from being over taken by seas. The weather a barge can handle has a lot to do with the load. Since use as a yacht is very lightly loaded a Dutch barge can handle some rough seas. I have had mine out in the bay in 65 mph winds and 12-15 seas and she did fine since we were running with the wind. Now bear in mind with a flat bottom and 17' beam the last thing you will do is want to go broadside to the seas. That is the vulnerability because it will roll and scare you to death or beat you to death or capsize. I can't see blie water use of a dutch barge but it can do coastal use in rough weather if you behave. In summary these boats are very safe if handled correctly. Once motoring acros the Neuse river in NC. there was a 6' sea coming from the aft quarter. The speed of the seas and the speed of the barge were just so that the boat set up a harmonic and a gentle roll that slowly increased to 45 degrees! Slowing down stopped it. If I was bow or stern to the wind no problem. Even with strong seas off the bow quarter she justs pounds through. I would not hesitate to take the boat across the English Channel and many have. Trade between France and Holland and England had these vessels going to and fro all the time. Now the captains were not stupid. I doubt they went out with only 12" of freeeboard which was not unusual in a canal. Anyway that is enough for now. Greenseas knows what he is saying. Seaspark is a tad pessimistic.
I love my barge. (A man and his barge is a beautiful thing).

[Alec & Henry]

Thanks for this great thread, I have read it all and its given me some great ideas.
I have a few questions that maybe can be answered by the readers.
I am a Florida native, I moved recently to Amsterdam and I have been exposed to all the great Dutch Barges (Amazing time at the 2010 Tall Ship sail meet)

I would like to have built a dutch boat, right now I am looking at Branson kits and steel but I have an interest in Aluminum, I want to keep the weight low so I can trailer the Barge from location to location. Looking at 36-40 feet, Aluminum or Steel, Diesel-Electric system with no drive shaft, Bow thruster and solar panels. Id like the wheel house to be retractable so I can have the best options for transport and for river cruising. Id like a Category B so I can cross the English Channel or hug the shore to Normandy.

I am going to outfit the barge in light aircraft material to keep the weight down and the space as open as I can.

Ive been in contact with many builders, trying to see what works best for me. Im hoping that 36-40 is big enough for two people on a part time live aboard. Any information/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for all your posts.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by RCardozo

I have been reading these posts and there is a lot of confusion about these vessels. I own the "Morgenster" ("Morning Star" in Dutch). She is a Dutch 73' sailing barge built in 1893 in Leiderdorp Holland. She is constructe of hammered iron plates rivetted together. This is similar to mild steel. These vessels were built to haul smaller cargo loads in canals rivers and coastal areas. I am in Baltimore on The Chesepeake bay. The bay is a shallow estuary similar to the former inland seas of Holland. My vessel was built before the combustion engine took over so it is sail powered.

I love my barge. (A man and his barge is a beautiful thing).

Did you move your boat south to Florida? And wasn't it for sale? I thought I remember seeing something to that effect.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

There are two parts of the design that leave me cold. The first is the stern with outboard rudder. I like the traditional round stern. The second is the pilothouse is not of the traditional Dutch barge design with helm station , around seating and table found in most replicas and commercial barges. I understand thAt Paul Fisher is designing a 45 foot barge to be built in steel. Hopefully that one will be more traditional. The advantage of building your own is that you can install additional fuel tanks during the building process.
Most of the European precut kits that I have seen are too expensive for the average person to build and furnish. A Naval Architect friend of mine, Tom MacNaughton has designed a canal barge also, but the pilothouse here also leaves something to be desired. For ICW, northern canals and river work, it wouldn't be too hard to design a barge to be built of plywood, fiberglass cloth and epoxy in the 45 foot length. The key to the suitability of the Dutch barge design is liveability and cruising with a small engine for long distances without the frequent need to refuel and take on water. Your thoughts?

Geenseas,
I just started review this subject thread again after a long hiatus, so I'm starting from the beginning. Can you tell me if you expanded on Tom's design(s), and where specifically that material is??
Regards, Brian

[cthippo]

I know this is a thread necro, bit how do the European canal barges do in any kind of seas. Selway Fisher has a couple of designs I really like, but they're the traditional flat bottoms and so I don't know how they would work for my part of the world.

[Pericles]

Ask Paul Fisher for his advice.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/contact_us.htm

Teign 45 is for coastal use, with a displacement of over 19 tons.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Mcover30.htm#TEIGN

P

[BATAAN]

Originally Posted by Alec & Henry

Thanks for this great thread, I have read it all and its given me some great ideas.
I have a few questions that maybe can be answered by the readers.
I am a Florida native, I moved recently to Amsterdam and I have been exposed to all the great Dutch Barges (Amazing time at the 2010 Tall Ship sail meet)

I would like to have built a dutch boat, right now I am looking at Branson kits and steel but I have an interest in Aluminum, I want to keep the weight low so I can trailer the Barge from location to location. Looking at 36-40 feet, Aluminum or Steel, Diesel-Electric system with no drive shaft, Bow thruster and solar panels. Id like the wheel house to be retractable so I can have the best options for transport and for river cruising. Id like a Category B so I can cross the English Channel or hug the shore to Normandy.

I am going to outfit the barge in light aircraft material to keep the weight down and the space as open as I can.

Ive been in contact with many builders, trying to see what works best for me. Im hoping that 36-40 is big enough for two people on a part time live aboard. Any information/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for all your posts.

36-40 feet is adequate for two if you're frugal and ready for a small space. A barge yacht would be fairly long and narrow so imagine living in something smaller than a shipping container with five foot headroom except under the cabin house. Do-able but could use improvement.
Problem with barge yachts, well observed in Thames Barges adaptions, is that reducing length changes the dynamic a great deal. A 90 foot TB is a great sea boat properly loaded and handled (!!) but reduce it to 40 feet and it's a cranky bitch, showing how much length adds to stability.
I suspect trying to adapt large industrial Dutch barges, of similar L/B/Depth ratios, to a smaller yacht use, will have the same result.
Best to pick or commission a proven design of a new vessel, based on barge principles, with the reality of the small size, light aluminum weight, and different use.
Water ballast??
If you want shallow draft and proven performance, dead-simple and safe handling, combined with stunning beauty and long tradition look at a light-ish displacement junk/yacht like builder-designer-sailor Allen Farrell's stunning, simple, cheap CHINA CLOUD seen here in a 3 part, 40 minute video at the following youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/RVUSTUDIO?feature=mhum#p/a (not the goat hunt video but in the menu).This adaptation of the "barge type" follows the path the Chinese have taken as adapted by a gifted builder, and the results are a truly artistic and seamanlike approach, given the long time commercial fishing background of the designer/builder and his knowledge of violent northern seas. The other vessel here, BERTIE, is a typical northern European 18th-19th century sloop/barge for beach cargoes but with a Chinese mainsail.

[cthippo]

Originally Posted by Pericles

Ask Paul Fisher for his advice.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/contact_us.htm

Teign 45 is for coastal use, with a displacement of over 19 tons.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Mcover30.htm#TEIGN

P

The Teign 45 and Humber 41 designs are both in my "book of designs I like", and I may yet drop the $45 to get study plans for them.

[brian eiland]

Only recently I added a 'canal boat' link to another subject thread I was participating in, and it brought this dream back to the forefront of my mind.

Here is a linked page that goes to what I consider to be the most beautiful canal barge of them all, Roi Soleil.

http://www.bargesinfrance.com/roisoleil-pictures.htm

Has this one not been brought up in these numerous postings??

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Windvang

Dutch barges are in steel because:
A: it's cheap and strong.
B: It gives the desired weight to get volume in the boat.

See: http://www.euroshipservices.nl/
.....for plans and pictures (in Dutch)

Upon my start of a review of this thread I found this posting and link. This is a very interesting company with lots to offer all stages of building/securing a canal vessel.

I particularly liked this one
http://www.euroshipservices.nl/english/

...scroll down the colume on the left and look at "luxe motor 2000 deksalon"

[EuroCanal]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

...scroll down the colume on the left and look at "luxe motor 2000 deksalon"

I also like the Europships' designs - they are closer to the original hull shapes, with rounded bottoms and compound curves around the bow and stern. It makes them more sea-worthy (for wide canals and inland seas, I mean).

There's a 2005 Euroships 20m deksalon for sale at the moment - slightly different design. It's expensive at €685,000, (I seem to recall it was offered for €750,000 last year), but looks as good as new.

http://www.apolloduck.nl/feature.phtml?id=116718

... and there's an 2001 18m aft-cockpit, which, I think was Euroships' demonstrator:

http://www.apolloduck.nl/feature.phtml?id=73938

As always, it's cheaper to buy a recently built one than to build new, but the second-hand market in dutch barges took a hit in the last couple of years, so now more so than ever. You can also find casco hulls, sailaways or cancelled orders around if you willing to arrange the finishing yourself.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by EuroCanal

....There's a 2005 Euroships 20m deksalon for sale at the moment - slightly different design. It's expensive at €685,000, (I seem to recall it was offered for €750,000 last year), but looks as good as new.

As always, it's cheaper to buy a recently built one than to build new, but the second-hand market in dutch barges took a hit in the last couple of years, so now more so than ever. You can also find casco hulls, sailaways or cancelled orders around if you willing to arrange the finishing yourself.

At those kind of prices it makes me wonder what we might build those for in Thailand??

[EuroCanal]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

At those kind of prices it makes me wonder what we might build those for in Thailand??

Dutch shipbuilders aren't the cheapest in the world, or even Europe, and Euroships is at the top end of the market. A more typical price for a new, finished Dutch Barge would be €240,000 (exc taxes), as offered by these builders:

http://www.hiboats.cz/cze/

The design is a simple hard-chine 33 tonne vessel. Euroships 20m is a beamier, taller 77 tonne boat with a deeper hull, and two decks of accommodation.

The level of equipment and finish won't be the same. Have a look at the engine room photos of the Euroships boats - it looks like they fit perforated aluminum sound proofing boards on the ceiling, and then put the gennie into a sound-insulating box within this room for extra quietness when the main engine is stopped. There's a lot of detail like this throughout the boat.