diagonal planking

I think the point is not so much the fact that old designs wouldn't work or be nice/pleasant/awesome/whatever.

The way I understood the criticism is that you are trying to take a boat designed (well designed) for purpose A and then change everything to get a boat designed for purpose B. It is a little like squeezing a square through a round hole.

The core beauty of the commuter (or any boat) comes largely from the fact that its is built around its function in an efficient way. Once you try to keep the looks but make it another boat something goes missing and the core sensibility of the boat is disturbed. Thus - would make more sense to design the ocean vessel from ground up (yes you can keep aesthetic cues from the boats you love) or start from a design that is much closer to its intended use.

Above is mixture of my opinions and my interpretation of what was said earlier.

And about strip planking - I think it is unfair to label strip planked builders as glue sniffers. For a short series boats it is a terrific way - cold molding is probably better but gets far more complicated and expensive. If you prefer bronze screws on oak frames and caulking etc. That's fine too but it is unjustified and unfair to label craftsmen who use more modern methods as fools.

All the best.

 

I get a little harsh sometimes on the modern methods as I see them as by and large a response to two things, a way around failures of our educational system to produce the craftsman necessary to continue in the traditions of the past and also an effort to maximize profits by minimizing skills
mas production techniques favor lower skills and cheaper labor rather than exemplify craftsmanship and its associated artistry

Im not against strip planking or the ashcroft method or diagonal for that mater, as I fully intend to apply methods offering various improvements into what is decidedly an ancient and inefficient design. The point was made that the take up in that old ceder hull is substantial that fact offer's some possibilities in itself and so I moved on to a more modern sheathing and have pretty much decided on double diagonal sandwiched between for and aft bedded in shellac ( still working on that part ) and the outer layer sealed with epoxy and copper bottom

I have found it more and more difficult to continue being competitive in my chosen field given the availability of cheep foreign labor and the expectation of lower standards of quality. Its frustrating to have a bunch of pencil pushers and bean counters force me out of business as Ive had no major builds in the last few years and might have to move back to the mountains in order to secure any work at all. The folks in Aspen and Vail are always looking for capable craftsman who can do the kind of work that is expected in the higher end homes.

the economic circumstances have served me well in that it gave me time to learn how to day trade and thus afford my retirement. Now I can finally use all my skills without compromise and build for myself instead of someone else. Although I need more money before I begin.

when the folks moved to Colorado I had intended to maintain my shipwright skills with a job in some small inland marina repairing small vessels for the locals. I was horrified to find only fiberglass hulls and stoners working in poorly ventilated shops that contained no tools. I dejectedly turned to framing houses to work my way through school.

I was so used to working with two grumpy old men with an intransigent sense of craftsmanship that I couldn't even remotely substitute what amounts to auto body repair for fine woodworking. I guess the disappointment shows sometimes.

I owe you an apology for the insinuation although I was not speaking of strip planking specifically
you guys are being dam helpful and it is appreciated

seems though that there must be a simple way to preserve the look of that old elco and still meet the more stringent requirements of open ocean cruising

its a simple mater of hull form bellow the water line and maintaining the rest above
while redistributing the mass to be lower and strengthening certain critical elements

a chine hidden bellow the water line is certainly a consideration as are a few other possible solutions

I kinda am partial to the twin bilge keels as it affords me that accidental grounding without to much damage ( depends on what I accidentally ground on )

although after looking at the suggested designs from a few posts ago I find that a top speed of 12 knots is not much better than 10 and that ten with significantly less engine

Ill keep looking and Ill sertainly continue considering all possibilities but the modern designs are not even remotely what Im after in terms of style there ability to exemplify craftsmanship or environmental considerations

I after a wooden 60' ish open water cruiser with that old time style of Widgen and the 57 flat top

turns out diagonal planking is the way to go

 

i am well aware of the strength of epoxy strip plank having built 2, 72ft charter yachts, by bill dixon & tony castro at sys, but i prefer facts not wild claims,

 

Boston,

The unfortunate thing about modern designs, (and why we do not like them), is because they are customer driven (often salesmen), more so than the older designs that were designer driven.

Only a few years back, designers would make a design, people would fall in love with it and ask for it to be built (by craftsmen).

Today's market has been driven by people, asking if they can have all the crap of the house transferred into the boat, keep it level, no rocking about, no maintenance, have three "bedrooms", go flat out so that they can use their limited "boating" time to get them as far as possible and back again for dinner.

Remember when we went out in the boat for the day as kids, she woul "pop-pop" all day, run on the smell of an oily rag, and bring you home safely, having been no where in particular, just "out on the boat".

So many "semi displacement" boats of today are pushed way past their displacement speed, have way too much hp to enable this to be done, dig enormous holes in the water and create wakes big enough to surf behind (and destroy the river banks), yet people still buy the crap.

I guess the good thing about the current financial situation world wide is that not so many of these messes will be made in future, and hopefully people will come back to earth a bit and realise that the old designs (like you have there were very practical boats for the purpose they were designed for.)

I expect to see many more displacement boats built in the future, as costs of fuel and associated times changes the buying power of the boatinmg public.

How many of us oldies have gone from the dinghy to the power skiff, to the "big boat" and now are back to small, comfortable sensible displacemant vessels that are affordable to use, do not take up half of the marina, and are actually great fun boats again.

such is life.......

 

the result of 35 years wooden boatbuilding , being in charge of 100 people, for 4 years on the construction of lulworth & www.patience.it , a week before the launch i was fired, uninvited to the launch,by the violent jealous junkie project manager, 3 weeks later i had a heart attack , so dont give me any crap about hard learning

 

Oh la la Boston...my first profession from 69 to 75 was naval carpenter ( but I was mainly a loftman), and I was able to build a classic boat, with the S shaped planks, tightly fitted , delicately shaped rabbet and tutti quanti.
But you know what? I'm happy like Droopy and I prefer the most efficient method.

It's the Occam's razor; faced to a problem I'll take the simplest solution.

In the old days, the complicated and skillful method was required because there was no other possibility (diagonal planking was considered by the traditionalists as degenerate method, used by unskilled people unable to get a fit joint in planking, read the english yachting mags of the 1900's)

Nowadays we have better alternatives and as generally I work for a client I'll take the best and cheaper method.

For making a hull, I'm sorry to say that a strip plank hull is stronger and cheaper than a diagonal plank. And for an amateur, as it requires less skill its a foolproof method. You can't ask to an amateur other than basic skills.

A part 2 or 3 aficionados, nobody will appreciate the craftsmanship of a classic naval carpenter. Specially after the caulking and painting. Just good for an article in Wooden Boat. Even worst; nobody gives a s...

I like virtuosity and craftsmanship where it's needed and appreciated like the interior joinery, but not in a hull where is a waste of time and money.

The hull is the support, not the finality of a boat.

 

point well taken
but how does a strip planked hull end up stronger
everything Im learning says the diagonal planked cold molded hulls are the strongest



those twin keels I keep thinking of adding


The main advantages are as follows:

there is a thread on this in here somewhere and those would not be to hard to add to the hull design of the old elco

 

hello boston, im looking for the details of mohican

 

"point well taken
but how does a strip planked hull end up stronger
everything Im learning says the diagonal planked cold molded hulls are the strongest"

Boston, I'll have later the pleasure to expose my statement, but now Duty is calling me...Interesting the twin keeler...

 

By flat bottomed I mean that these old commuters have a deadrise angle at the transom of approximately 5 degrees and midships deadrise of about 10 degrees. That's fairly flat an infers a hull form floating on top of the water. This shape runs out of reserve stability quickly and has a quick motion. A deeper form will roll more slowly and CB shift is more gradual, giving a more comfortable motion and better reserve stability.

These are similar era examples of boats intended for seagoing use...

 

Re the list of advantages claimed by one marketer of twin keels.......

This list pertains to sailing vessels....has this Consolidated Commuter now morphed back into a sailing vessel?

There are ways to achieve a far more comfortable ride with far less drag. Towing Paravanes is the answer, small drag when in use, zero drag when not in use, second only (somewhat controversial) to active fins in roll attenuation. No computers or hydraulics involved. A Flume tank may be next in the order of simplicity and effectiveness.

 

Tad - the last boat (tacoma?) is very handsome. The livelier sea too helps in selling the boat I guess.

 

You are dead right Ilan! NOTHING in the wooden yachtworld is as strong as a multiple diagonal, EP prepped, cold moulded hull..............
One could make (and I have done) a wooden sandwich composite, using inner diagonal hardwood veneers, a longitudinal strip of softwood, and outer layers of diagonal planked hardwood again. That is the very strongest possible structure you can achieve with wood / EP. But that is not what we call "strip planked" in terms of everyday boatbuilding methods and it is twice the effort for a few percent gain. (over plain cold moulded)
First shows 5 layers, same material, same properties, 45°, -45° alternating.
Second picture shows two layers diag. one long, two layers diag.
Questions?

Regards
Richard

 

seems like we have reached a conclusion then
double diagonal cold molded

the other issues are superfluous to the topic
thanks guys
B

although Peter I would love to see whatever details you may have on Mohican

Par you mentioned plans being available on the elco's
you have all of my attention mate

Tad
points well taken again
it is possible to fiddle with the lines of the old Elco and make the alterations you suggested earlier
I could easily deepen the hull aft and by adding anti roll devices or bilge keels ( propably the later ) I can further enhance her sea kindliness without loosing the look Im after. Any major alteration I undertake will need to be confirmed by at least one NA in an overall review of all the proposed alterations.

 

Excuse that I do´nt agree (as usual), there are by far toooooooo many alterations you made (at least in your homemade theory) to some proven designs, that a "pro" could assume it may fit a seagoing vessel after all.
If we are talking a building method only, there is no choice for a "wood" man. WOOD EPOXY. Metal is a different and valid choice though.
But stating that almost everything is said, sorry mate, that is a bit broad.
I love your emphasis for the old fashioned craftsmanship (and you remember I showed you the most outstanding examples of boatbuilding art), but you must cool down a bit and allow, that boatbuilding is one of the most painful sorts of unsatisfying compromises one can think of.
I am a bit in doubt if you are really out to sea, or out to build!?
And I understand your passion for steamers, lobsterboats, classic shooners, commuters and the like, (all of them I´ve sailed, many of them I´ve built), but you are not focussed on a BOAT or a style of boat, you are focussed on building something precious that is able to go to sea!
Find your niche first, lets talk technique then, please!
I hope you do´nt misunderstand that as a offense.

Regards
Richard