Designing your own boat, A fool for a client?

[Pierre R]

I would by no means call myself a boat designer but I have studied it enough and have enough acutal sea experience that I can relate what I have learned to the water but, the more I look at designing my own boat, the more complicated and harder it gets. I understand all the pieces that go into it, the process and how thing interact but I am still missing a comfort with the overall big picture. This whole boat designing business is a whole lot more that first meets the eye.

I am begining to think that part of the problem could be the fact that I want the boat to do to many things and I am not very good about wanting to compromise on those things. I want to look at it with rose colored dreamy eye glasses and violate the very prinicples I would rally against in a thread. I can't draw what I want because it doesn't work in the drawing.

Could it be that I have a fool for a client? Like a doctor treating himself. I certainly would not spend the kind of money to build my own design at this point in time given the fact of the principles 101 that I seem to want to violate. The results could be a disaster.

Or, could it just be that I am at a confusing point in my journey where I am knowledgeable enough to know the pitfalls but not quite knowledgeable enough to put it all together into a real boat?

Well I have some time as I am not ready to commit a bunch of money yet given the current climate. That could change fast though.

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by Pierre R

I would by no means call myself a boat designer but I have studied it enough and have enough acutal sea experience that I can relate what I have learned to the water but, the more I look at designing my own boat, the more complicated and harder it gets. I understand all the pieces that go into it, the process and how thing interact but I am still missing a comfort with the overall big picture. This whole boat designing business is a whole lot more that first meets the eye.

I am begining to think that part of the problem could be the fact that I want the boat to do to many things and I am not very good about wanting to compromise on those things. I want to look at it with rose colored dreamy eye glasses and violate the very prinicples I would rally against in a thread. I can't draw what I want because it doesn't work in the drawing.

Could it be that I have a fool for a client? Like a doctor treating himself. I certainly would not spend the kind of money to build my own design at this point in time given the fact of the principles 101 that I seem to want to violate. The results could be a disaster.

Or, could it just be that I am at a confusing point in my journey where I am knowledgeable enough to know the pitfalls but not quite knowledgeable enough to put it all together into a real boat?

Well I have some time as I am not ready to commit a bunch of money yet given the current climate. That could change fast though.

Anyone with that attitude should not even try. But you must be here for some reason. What is it you would like to design? If you find a lot of the same type of boats, you could graph all the relevant specs and make charts that would help you in the design. Of course you may have to make some adjustments, but that is done all the time. Maybe you are a perfectionist,
and feel that your work could never be good enough.
Just keep at it and see what comes out .

[Vulkyn]

I met some one once who was an expert in arts, knew all about it paintings could detect subtle things but he just didnt have the talent to draw himself.

I am not sure if this applies or not but sometimes knowing about something is different than building it.
Just food for thought and i wish you the best of luck

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by Vulkyn

I met some one once who was an expert in arts, knew all about it paintings could detect subtle things but he just didnt have the talent to draw himself.

I am not sure if this applies or not but sometimes knowing about something is different than building it.
Just food for thought and i wish you the best of luck

I dont think someone can be an expert in art and not know how to draw.
There are many who have superficial knowledge , but that is not the same as knowing. But these kind of debates can become boring and unfruitful , so I will say no more, except that a little effort is worth more than a ton of bull **** .

[welder/fitter]

Originally Posted by Pierre R

I would by no means call myself a boat designer but I have studied it enough and have enough acutal sea experience that I can relate what I have learned to the water but, the more I look at designing my own boat, the more complicated and harder it gets. I understand all the pieces that go into it, the process and how thing interact but I am still missing a comfort with the overall big picture. This whole boat designing business is a whole lot more that first meets the eye.

Pierre,
Obviously I do not know you well &, therefore, cannot comment on your abilities to design. My experience, to date, has been that the more I learn about design, the more I realize that there was much I didn't know or respect as important to the final product. I have a few dozen designs which look good - some better than others - but I can now appreciate that they were hours upon hours of wasted time. I note in several posts where Richard(Apex) reminds a person about the design spiral. If I had known of such a simple, yet crucial thing, perhaps my time would have been better spent on a few designs, than on a few dozen. One really needs to go around that spiral several times, I am learning.

In building boats & other marine vessels, however, I have learned that they are always compromised from the original desires of the owner. Even people with very deep pockets, such as my former boss Dennis Washington, end up compromising on various aspects. I suggest that you visualize yourself being on the final product & prioritize your wants by listing them, then start at the bottom of the list & cross items off, until you get to what can be accomplished within your planned budget. I'd also suggest picking a specific number for your budget & not increasing that number as you think that you'd really like to have "this" and "that", as well. You know well that that budgetary figure will grow wings and soar without any help from you, right? LOL
Best of luck!
Mike

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Pierre R

I am still missing a comfort with the overall big picture.
I want the boat to do to many things and I am not very good about wanting to compromise on those things.
I can't draw what I want because it doesn't work in the drawing.

Some serious doubts..
Care to share your SOR ?

[Pierre R]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Some serious doubts..
Care to share your SOR ?

Oh, THAT. I would expose the flaws in my thinking. Lemmy see if I am ready to expose myself that much. Gosh I might have to take some of the lunacy out of it to even dare to print it. Well, ahhhh, lemmy try to list it in a further post. I actually have it in writing at this time.

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by Pierre R

Oh, THAT. I would expose the flaws in my thinking. Lemmy see if I am ready to expose myself that much. Gosh I might have to take some of the lunacy out of it to even dare to print it. Well, ahhhh, lemmy try to list it in a further post. I actually have it in writing at this time.

Exposing flawed thinking hasn't stopped many here , and I include myself in that. I think it was Picasso who said that a painting is a total of many destructions. Maybe it was not him, but I like the idea.

[Pierre R]

Mission Statement:
I want a boat capable of being operated by two non athletic individuals that is optimized for inland waterways, canals and near shore coastal cruising 90% or more of the time. Further I want a boat capable of fast passage across oceans along the best weather routes available as a secondary use. I want the boat to be sea-kindly yet there are no plans to take this boat in the North Atlantic or the Southern Ocean is areas where high winds are likely to be encountered.

Further Details.
Positive righting
French canal capable; 11'2” max air draft, 16' max beam (3.4m , 4.9m)
Canadian Canal capable; 4' draft preferred 5' draft max. (1.2m to 1.5m)
Cruising speed in displacement mode, Local 12+ knots, Trans Pac. 10-12 knots
Range able to take advantage of Pacific equatorial routes to and from SP Islands from NA
Sea-kindly motion, especially in a following sea
Twin Engine
Stores for 4 people for a couple of months. Great off grid capabilities
Protected running gear
Stabilization, really like Seakeeper and flopper stoppers.
Scantlings strong enough for object strike at 12.5 knots

Layout: Level of finish is high end commercial
Master state room with separate head, large closet space, twin beds
Guest stateroom with en suite head to office
Office/stateroom for additional guests
Pilot house
Galley/dining
Salon
Day head
laundry/storage
Room to work in engine room, 110deg F max at cruise
Garage, big enough for toys, dink, etc.
Power ramp into water (wife is very balance challenged and not likely to board dinks in all cond.
Access to bow and front deck area from pilot house

Mechanicals:
Probably unpainted aluminum but open to other options
Bow thruster
Good ground tackle bow and stern
Probably twin Lugger with CCP, dry stack, keel cooled
Northern Lights gen sets
Large house battery bank, inverters and good DC system, decent monitoring system
Fuel polishing system
Auto fire system
A/C/ heat
Cold plate refrigeration and freezer
Water maker 800 gpd min
Good quality sanitation system
flying bridge, okay if removable for French canals
Electronics to be determined closer to build


What I have come up with is something around 78' (24m) long
Beam 13.5' to 16' (4.1m to 4.9m)
DWL (Cruising wt) of 89,000 lb to 112,000 lb (40 to 50 tonnes )
Styling, I really like Bill Gardens designs. Something like Captain Teach but open to other ideas.
Budget $ 15 to $20 US per lb light ship, FOB point of build, less commissioning.

My real problem is the water draft. I want my cake and eat it too. 6' to 7' is more realistic.

[Vulkyn]

Aside from franks reply, here is Apex's design spiral link that welder/fitter mentioned, very helpful in getting your design into perspective.

The Design Spiral, or where to start building a boat.

[TeddyDiver]

Just picked up what puzles me most
Mission Statement:
Positive rightingmoment.. at what angle
Twin Engine why.. lot of good reasons not to
Stabilization, really like Seakeeper and flopper stoppers.with the twin engine this doesn't belong in the SOR, both can be solutions to achieve the requirements, not the requirements itself

My real problem is the water draft. I want my cake and eat it too. 6' to 7' is more realistic.Serious ballast tanks could solve. Emptied less draft for inland and filled for greater stability for open seas
Lot of space needed in a slender hull. You need a "boxy" freighter or "oasis of the seas" type of a boat, with high Cp. Not very much to play with style

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by Vulkyn

Aside from franks reply, here is Apex's design spiral link that welder/fitter mentioned, very helpful in getting your design into perspective.

The Design Spiral, or where to start building a boat.

Keep away from the side shots at me and we will get along fine. Its your call .

[Vulkyn]

Please stay on topic, should you have anything to talk to me about please do so in a private massage.

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by Vulkyn

Please stay on topic, should you have anything to talk to me about please do so in a private massage.

You brought me up right here , and this is where I will deal with you.
Fair is fair. Now we will see if you can stop being impudent.

Originally Posted by Pierre R

Mission Statement:
Further I want a boat capable of fast passage across oceans along the best weather routes available as a secondary use. I want the boat to be sea-kindly yet there are no plans to take this boat in the North Atlantic or the Southern Ocean is areas where high winds are likely to be encountered.
.

High winds you will encounter on any open ocean passage if the time is right!

When my old hard disc does not fool me, have already once made a comment about your SOR.

The package is too complex.

It might be possible to pack all that in one boat of the size you think about, but that will most probably be a lousy junk by all means.

Your speed requirements are unrealistic. Trans Pac at 10 - 12 kn is a 40 meter boat! (I did 11,2 with a 50 meter yacht)

Buy Windhorse if possible and you get close. Although that boat has less than you require.

The fact that you struggle "designing" your own boat is a common problem. I do so, all my boatbuilding colleagues do so, and all the NA´s I know are as unable. When it comes to the own boat we like to forget our own advice. And we tend to circumnavigate the compromise. Unfortunately:

same game, same rules.

A sidenote:
forget about European canals on a 24m boat, except you are willing to make a complete new license! Up to 15 meter already requires a additional license to your existing one! Above that it gets difficult and expensive.
Seeing you are from the US, I assume you don´t have any license at all. That means you will have to navigate European inland waterways for a year or longer under the command of a licensed pro, before you are accepted to make your own!

Regards
Richard