Designing a plastic bottle island/floating platform

[Boston]

Originally Posted by apex1

Sorry Boston, NO.

Incineration is the worst way to get rid of it, due to heavy pollution (Furane, Dioxine).
Depolymerisation is the way to go. Optimal is a pressureless, catalytic depo. treatment. The result is a medium destillate, similar to pure Diesel with a high cetan #.
In simple terms, thats just the backward process of making plastic from mineral oil.
But the plant you need costs around 5mio US$. The industry does´nt like the system too much (guess why?), so, I built only two of them by so far.
But it is a sensible, and profitable treatment, when the input material is for free.

Regards
Richard

an organization I recently worked with is building a 25 million dollar gasification plant with money intended for animal conservation, The plan elicited my resignation in protest.
Frankly to work as a scientists after all these years was a dream come true, however, I'm not interested in political correctness or lecturing endless piles of pencil pushing fools who couldnt give a rats ass about preserving the remnants of what was once an ecology. Most of em were so wrapped up in there own little fields of research they hardly could remember what a girl is let alone be able to appreciate the big picture.
you are of course right Apex.
there is simply no effective way to clean up the plastics disaster that has befallen our world. Only thing to do is ensure that the companies that knowingly produced the pollutants are not allowed to get away with it and are forced into a settlement that ensures the maximum possible compensation is exacted from them.
I was merely stating that rather than build some floating toxic waist island it would be better to send the stuff to an existing gasification plant for proper disposal. I believe if you look up what a gasification power plant is and how it works you will see that the temps involved are sufficient to break down the toxins typically released by incinerating plastics.
The cost and maintenance of these plants should obviously be the responsibility of the industry that required them in order to properly dispose of there product without further damage to the environment

although I gotta admit I had not thought of chemical dissolution
good idea that is
should also work like a charm except that you still need to dispose of the results and incineration once again is the most likely choice

cheers
B

[hoytedow]

Chemical dissolution would at least convert it back into something that could be used as a fuel to power, say, electrical generation plant.

[Boston]

thats exactly what gasification does
but it used extremely high heat instead of chemicals
same thing in the end, breaks the solid to a gas and burns it to generate electricity

....and destroys our environment by pollution. When the temp. goes over 400°C you produce Furane and Dioxine. No matter how tricky (and expensive) the technology, incineration is the wrong way.

[hoytedow]

Originally Posted by apex1

....and destroys our environment by pollution. When the temp. goes over 400°C you produce Furane and Dioxine. No matter how tricky (and expensive) the technology, incineration is the wrong way.

Richard,
Can the plastic be cracked further to remove furane and dioxine, or perhaps recombined to make some other USEFUL compound?

Originally Posted by hoytedow

Richard,
Can the plastic be cracked further to remove furane and dioxine, or perhaps recombined to make some other USEFUL compound?

One must not crack the stuff. If the process stays below 400°C no dioxine and furane is built up.
It can be converted to Diesel fuel of the highest quality. The technology is a low temp. pressureless catalytic depolymerisation. A standard industrial plant, capable of processing 700kg hr is about 5mio US$ and could be installed on a ship. When the input material is plastic and biodegradables only, the output will be around 80 to 85% Diesel fuel.
But!
We are not talking about a garbage dump here! This plastic stuff is smaller than confetti and does not float at the surface.
So, collecting it becomes a real challenge.
When you calculate the density is about 5mg per m² and there are 4 particles in the m² at the points with high density, you have a clue about the task. Then you must not forget, it floats between zero and 10 meters below surface.
To harvest the crap you need to dig through 20 to 40 square km a day and you´ll catch each and everything in that area down to 10 meter depth. You cannot separate the plastic from marine life.
The plant will treat it right, no problem. But you leave a desert behind your ship.
Technically not that big a task, and cost will be reasonable too, but profitable, no. Cost for the process is around 0,23€ per liter Diesel in a landbased plant. (assuming the input material is a homogenous mix, and for free)
A plant on a ship will have about twice the cost min. and the harvest apparatus will need so much energy that you probably produce just enough Diesel to "keep the stack smoking".

Regards
Richard

[bntii]

Thanks Richard- I did not have any ideal of most of the above post.
I resubmit my solution-

"Keep this horse in the barn"
That is keep the stuff out of the environment to start!
Product packaging has far more plastic than it needs considering the alternatives available.

Time is all that is needed to eliminate the "garbage patch" if it is not continually added to.

[Boston]

ok Apex you are a jewel in the crown of conservation
I need to take a few and go re educate on the gasification process
I know its an extreemly high temp system that turns the solids into gasses in an oxygenless environment then add oxygen and ignites that. The whole big deal about it is its supposed to do exactly what your saying it doesnt do, so giving you the benifit of the doubt I need to dig back into this and see if I missed something ( entirely likely ) or if Im just misunderstanding you ( also entirely likely ) or if there is something about the system that has proved itself infective ( happens all the time ).

cheers
B

[gonzo]

I think that the problem is not the system you use, but the low yield of plastic. Also, filtering that much water will destroy most of the sea life.

Originally Posted by Boston

ok Apex you are a jewel in the crown of conservation
cheers
B

Thank you Boston! I did know I have some qualities, just had not found them.

When you process garbage in a incineration plant, you need high temp anyway, to get a efficient process running. The problem is, that you cannot avoid to produce poisonous gas, like furane / dioxine. There are ways to filter them out or reprocess the gas fraction. We run such plants in Europe since ages. But you have serious loads of slacks and ashes, and they are ALL very poisonous.
Of course the industry tells you, thats all handled safe and environmental friendly. That IS possible, yes. But then the profit is gone!

Holding the plastic fraction out of incineration process is the better way,
thats all.

Regards
Richard

Originally Posted by Boston

ok Apex you are a jewel in the crown of conservation
cheers
B

Thank you Boston! I did know I have some qualities, just had not found them.

When you process garbage in a incineration plant, you need high temp anyway, to get a efficient process running. The problem is, that you cannot avoid to produce poisonous gas, like furane / dioxine. There are ways to filter them out or reprocess the gas fraction. We run such plants in Europe since ages. But you have serious loads of slacks and ashes, and they are ALL very poisonous.
Of course the industry tells you, thats all handled safe and environmental friendly. That IS possible, yes. But then the profit is gone!

Holding the plastic fraction out of incineration process is the better way,
thats all.

Regards
Richard

[gonzo]

Derelikt is the answer

[hoytedow]

Now to find out the half-life of furane and dioxine.

[hoytedow]

A derivative of furan, 2,5-dimethylfuran is a heterocyclic compound with the formula (CH3)2C4H2O. While it may be abbreviated DMF, it should not be confused with dimethylformamide. This simple compound is a potential biofuel, being derivable from cellulose.
Forget half life, is this do-able from furane gas?

No idea hoyte.

I just know that both substances are extremely toxic and not welcome in waste processing.
And as always, the easiest way to avoid such stuff is the best. And thats low temp. treatment of many different kinds.
A integrated waste treatment and recycling plant I´m going to build in Izmir, actually has 11 different technologies involved, to process average household and grade 1 (low risk) industrial waste.

Regards
Richard