Design History

[dishsail]

Fellow designer's and builders:

I am working on some homework from the yacht design school and am wondering what exactly is a deep keel vessel with hollow garboards?

If anyone could help me out that would be a big help. Thanks.

Joe

[Hunter25]

Is it not the point of your homework to get you to research the different hull forms? Involving yourself in yacht design should include some study in the history and evolution of yachts, I would think. You can learn a large amount from the master designers, during the great era of sail, or you could log on and get the information from someone here, at which point you will have learned nothing, except an answer to your question. Just to add to your dilemma, a shallow keel vessel could also have hollow garboards.

[dishsail]

Hunter25:

My first reaction for your response is how much graduate work have you done in your life? From my understanding this forum was very understanding and willing to help a fellow student/learner that was willing to get into this industry maybe that isn't the case. If you had ever had any higher education you would understand that asking for help is the upmost importance to understanding the problem at hand.

Futhermore, I'm assuming that you think I need this information for a basic question which if you were kind enough to ask what I need the information for then maybe you could understand why researching the information isn't really going to help me. I will say that my first experience on this forum isn't really of help to me and I hope that others that belong to this forum aren't has negative as you were.

Thanks,
Joe

[SailDesign]

dishsail,
You have to admit that on the surface it looks like you were cheating on your homework assignment. On second thoughts - it still looks that way . Whether you are engaged in graduate work (by the way, it is spelt "uTmost") or are fresh out of high school, Hunter is right that the whole idea of homework is to gather the experience for yourself.
Do a google search for "Garboard" and that will give you enough data to determine what a hollow one might be. Read a book on wooden boat construction (which you should have around if you are in a yacht design school) and that should confirm your findings.
Still at a loss? - come back and ask again, giving where you looked and what you didn't find. People here will help, but mostly if you can demonstrate that you TRIED to do it yourself.
Steve - loves to help but will not do your work for you....

[stevel]

I will not take you to task too much for getting frustrated at the first response, as I do not know how much other research you have done, and whether you were looking for some minor breakthrough that would let you research further, or just wanted the answer. What I do want to point out, however, is that there are many on this forum who have advanced degrees, and many who have GEDs. You can't always tell which is which in an informal place like this. Enough on that...

More to the point, graduate research has always been about gathering information through primary research (experiments, case studies,...etc.), and secondary research (reading the results of others' research and resynthesizing it to lead you toward answers to your question.) Your question wasn't really either, but not knowing the context, I would not go as far as to conclude that you are not doing some secondary research and asking for help getting enough information to move on to the real question. If there is a bigger question, toss it out there with some information about what you have tried, what the hurdles are, ...etc., and I'm pretty sure that you will get help.

BTW, my grad work was in business and accounting, but it helps me understand how to research almost any question that I have. I can't always understand everything that I dig up in my research, but I can usually get enough out of it to know the right questions to ask, or the right thinkg to do.

Good luck with the schooling. I wish I had the time to study yatch design. What I have seen of it so far is fascinating to me.

[dishsail]

As I have done a great deal of searching on the internet, but due to the fact of my location neither my book stores or library offer books dealing with yachting. I have yacht to jump out and buy a book on wooden boat construction not knowing full heartly I want to get into this industry.

The question that I need to answer is to mid section of deep keel vessel with hollow garboards. However, I was unable to find any information about what are garboards and what their history is in boatbuilding. If I understand that I could at least get some understanding on how I can begin the sketching.

I am in no way asking anyone to do my homework, but there seems to be a little assuming going on in this forum thinking that I am requiring people to do that and maybe it is just me from my past experience when you asked for help from people they would either provide the answer out front or guide you to a place where you could find the answer. Thanks.

[dishsail]

While I've found out what a garboard strake is the first wale laid next to the keel of a wooden boat. I am not familiar with wooden boat construction but I am wondering if the keel for the most part is setup starting as a wooden plank where iron is usually attached.

Also, with that said what does it mean to be hollow? Does that mean it is not wooden? Thanks.

[twakeley]

Originally Posted by dishsail

I am in no way asking anyone to do my homework, but there seems to be a little assuming going on in this forum thinking that I am requiring people to do that and maybe it is just me from my past experience when you asked for help from people they would either provide the answer out front or guide you to a place where you could find the answer. Thanks.

Maybe that is the problem, you are used to people giving you the answer when you ask a question. Sure it answers the question and you are on to the next question. But did you really learn anything? I have had some great professors in school who would never give you the answer straight up. Instead they would answer my question with a related question, which after I solved it led me to the answer of the first question. But it usually took some research and/or experiments to reach that conclusion. A quick google search can find information about anything!

[twakeley]

You dont know what hollow means? Try a dictionary.

[hansp77]

Originally Posted by dishsail

I am in no way asking anyone to do my homework, but there seems to be a little assuming going on in this forum thinking that I am requiring people to do that

The ocean is bigger than the fish that are biting at your hook.

Also, don't get too offended. The people who have taken the time and effort to respond to your question are doing so out of the best intentions. After all it is good for no-one to have yacht designers out there who never learnt the answers for themselves.
Not to say that you are one of these.
But in their defense, there does seem to have been few students of boat design that have come here for that reason.

The silly thing is, that if you had not been honest, if you had made up some story about needing to know that info, then someone probably would have just told you.

If I had the answer I would tell you.
I don't know about your course, but within mine, just saying the answer doesn't help much if you can't provide a source or explanation of where it came from. (and a boat design forum isn't exactly a sound reference.)
Thus, in my understanding- any help you could get here, would probably be just that- help to get you further along the path towards the real work, of doing it yourself.

Anyway, best luck.

P.S.

Originally Posted by twakeley

Maybe that is the problem, you are used to people giving you the answer when you ask a question. Sure it answers the question and you are on to the next question. But did you really learn anything? I have had some great professors in school who would never give you the answer straight up. Instead they would answer my question with a related question, which after I solved it led me to the answer of the first question. But it usually took some research and/or experiments to reach that conclusion. A quick google search can find information about anything!

Come on people,
lets be nice.
Twakely, if you know the answer, then please follow your own advice and answer his question with a related question.

Also,
while a quick google search may find some information about anything, it is hardly the most academic solution to a problem.

also if I wanted a quick answer, just to copy and paste (so to speak) then a google search is more likely to be what I would do, than bother to ask about it in a forum.

and again,

Originally Posted by twakeley

You dont know what hollow means? Try a dictionary.

hey you are probably 100% right,
but quite often something that seems that obvious may not translate into the what the literal definition would have you think it would.
Especially in boats.

I like to think we are here to help, not to critisize people over (percieved) silly questions.

[dishsail]

I can't stand when people assume things and then also make judgement based on others previous actions. I will not suggest this forum to anyone.

Thank you very much for all your help, but I will no longer will be using this forum for help as I can greatly see that the users that have posted replies to me are in no way willing to offer help in any fashion to a beginning student.

Maybe you should consider changing your forum to the unhelpful boat design forum as that is what your members have shown me. You would rather cut down a fellow design student then present a simple answer or reference to an answer.

Thanks, but No Thanks.

[hansp77]

I gotta say,
for dishsail,

If I had copped this towards some of my begining posts then I probably would have been pissed as well.
Actually, not probably, most definately.

There are nicer ways to do things, whether right or wrong.
A community (like this) grows and prospers by encouraging and helping new and less experienced people into the forum, not shaming them away.

I hope for the forums sake that dishsail does hang around, as one day it could be he that is offering advice or 'answers' rather than recieving them.

[p.s. dishsail, check your personal messages]

[SailDesign]

dishsail,
Here is a link to libraries in your area, with the search "boat building".
http://lclscatalog.org/uhtbin/cgisir.../274480235/123
I'm sure there is more than what's on this page, which searches like "wooden boat" or "yacht building" may pull up.
Enjoy!
Steve

[SailDesign]

If you could tell us the context that requires you to know this info, it may have made things easier. Just saying "I need this for homework" usually elicits the response you received.
I think some here wonder at someone studying yacht design who does not know what a hollow garboard is, as well. Discovering what it is by doing some first-hand research will enable you to fill out your knowledge of construction a bit, and believe me, if you try to design without knowing at least the basics of how to build, you are going to be in trouble before you start. Reading a book is SOooooooo much better than finding scraps of info online.
Steve "stick around - you may get to like it here...."

[twakeley]

I didn't mean to sound hostile, but if you dont know what hollow means, and don't explain the context, I don't want to be on your boat. But the lack of detail in the question leads to a lack of detail (and interest) in the answer. Knowing the right questions to ask is very important. Next time, give some background on your assignment like you started to do later in the thread and help us help you.

As far as the definitions go.. I did a quick search on google for "wooden ship building terms" and found this great website...

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/vessels/terms.htm#stoz

It explains the keel, garboard, and strakes along with tons of other terms. For the record by saying a quick google search, I meant a minimal amount of time and effort(as opposed to ordering and readnig a book) without sacrificing detail.