Dare to Say No

[Willallison]

Oh dear... I fear we are wandering from the topic (Sorry Chris...)

That wasn't an advertisment. It was brainwashing. I certainly don't want to get into a debate about the infulence or otherwise that mankind is having on the rising temperatures of our planet.
I take a modicum of offense at the suggestion that I'm imposing some kind of irresponsible, reckless attitude on my kids by taking them away on the boat for the weekend. But fear not, my skin is thick - and for as long as they enjoy it, I will continue to do so
Equally, I don't think any less of you because you have no desire to do the kind of boating that I enjoy. Whatever rows your boat, I think AH said...
I don't want this to descend into nastiness - how about we just agree to disagree....


Boat Fan.
I fear that Rick's enthusiasm for all things peddled and paddled has made me sound like some kind of advocate for the gas guzzler. I am not. As I've said before, my most recent launch is an attempt to bring at least some kind of efficiency to the pleasure boat market. (Quite succesfully too, if I do say so myself... The vessel in question uses about 1/2 the fuel of equivalent production boats). But I digress...
I do think you are in the minority (though not here) however. At least for the time being. I too think that many of these boats are unnecessarily wasteful.
The cost of fuel might gradually bring about their demise. More likely it will be fashion. The desire to be seen to be 'green' will open up a market for the floating equivalent for the Toyota Preus (which of course is not green at all... but I digress again)

Back to the question at hand once more....
As I said, the push for simpler, more efficient boats is most likely IMHO to come from the most wasteful sector of all... the superyacht.
The opportunities to produce efficent craft of all sizes, I don't think will come from designers, or builders at all. It will come from the marketing department. Green afterall is the new black....

[boat fan]

My post was not so much about the cost Rick, in dollar terms.
I made the assumption that if I owned such a boat , I could afford to fuel it up.

This was about the moral dilemma of such consumption.
I`m wondering if I`m in the minority when I say that I would be bothered
by my conscience.?

Sorry Will ...I was typing when you posted. You have already addressed the question.

The vessel in question uses about 1/2 the fuel of equivalent production boats). But I digress...

I don`t think you digressed actually. Efficiency is mentioned in the original thread.Very relevant.

I do agree that Rick's idea of boating may be a little too " narrow and well defined "....just a personal opinion.

BTW.....1/2 the fuel consumption is more than significant.Well done I say.

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Willallison

Oh dear... I fear we are wandering from the topic (Sorry Chris...)

That wasn't an advertisment. It was brainwashing. I certainly don't want to get into a debate about the infulence or otherwise that mankind is having on the rising temperatures of our planet.
.....

We are not wandering. We are discussing the forces that are shaping the direction of the boating industry. More on the concerns of future generation:
http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/...h-opinion.html

The question is about how the industry is responding to these forces. What will the industry look like. What I see is huge growth in things like Hobie's. This is an observation. Not any particular barrow to push. Hobie could have gone upmarket. They produced one of the fastest sailing boats ever built. I think record holder in its day. However they have emerged as the king of roto boats. I think they looked at where the market was going. They build for the masses. High profit margin and big volume.

What is Hobie's sales revenue? How profitable are they? Have they suffered a severe downturn in sales?

Rick W

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by boat fan

..
I`m wondering if I`m in the minority when I say that I would be bothered
by my conscience.?

...

It is something I have discussed with others and I am no doubt selective who I talk to about it. It is easy to degenerate into a political debate.

I expect you know where I stand on the matter. The proportions may change across generations so it would depend on the audience.

A poll on it here might be interesting. I doubt your view is in the majority but it is certainly a growing minority if not the majority.

I think the talk of climate change blurs the real issue. My concern is that our little space ship cannot support the untethered aspirations of 6,700,000,000 people, and growing alarmingly, to consume whatever they can. There has to be a majority with a conscience and concern for where it is heading - I am a parent. We are like the locust plague that eats itself into oblivion but leaves a devastated landscape.

Rick W

[portacruise]

What's the first thing the Chinese and Indians buy when they reach disposable income stage? I believe that is wheels ala USA style, breathable air be damned... What happens as every last human competes for autos and moves on to boats, etc? AFAIK, no cradle to grave regulations in the East on poisons, at least to the degree we have in the USA.

If we live in a closed system, energy and materials will have to be rationed. Will the rationing be voluntary? Will that rationing be dictated by price in a free market? Or will the rationing be based on military, economic or political power? Interesting times.

Porta

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by portacruise

What's the first thing the Chinese and Indians buy when they reach disposable income stage? I believe that is wheels ala USA style, breathable air be damned... What happens as every last human competes for autos and moves on to boats, etc? AFAIK, no cradle to grave regulations in the East on poisons, at least to the degree we have in the USA.

If we live in a closed system, energy and materials will have to be rationed. Will the rationing be voluntary? Will that rationing be dictated by price in a free market? Or will the rationing be based on military, economic or political power? Interesting times.

Porta

Vic
I guess it is a rhetorical question because you know we live in a closed system. Fortunately for Australia we are one of the suppliers to China not one of the recipients/receptors:
http://geology.com/nasa/monitoring-p...atellite.shtml
USA is not immune from what is happening in China. There are many and varied impacts that are just starting to get noticed on a world scale and China's per capita energy consumption is about 16% of the USA. I think the meeting point will be much closer to where China is now than where the USA is now.

I guess that sets a maximum goal for boat power. A reduction of 50% will not cut it. Need to cut boat energy consumption to about 16% of the current level providing all other aspects of energy consumption can achieve the same reduction. If not then boats as luxury items are not sustainable.

Rick W

[boat fan]

Oh well....I`ll stay on "the outer" then.....

[fcfc]

Originally Posted by boat fan

Rick touched on something here that I would like to make comment on.

I have not the money to own a large , powerful , luxurious boat.

I have however thought about what it would be like to own one.

Assuming that I had no difficulty pumping several hundreds / thousands gallons/ liters of diesel into the tanks at will ,
I can say, HONESTLY, that the consumption necessary to operate that boat / yacht would nag at my conscience.

Is my way of thinking really in the minority ?

It is a very very small minority.

The fuel necessary to operate that boat will not be bigger than the one burnt by the helicopter you use travelling, or turboprop aircraft you also use. Or the open air swimming pool you heat in winter, or the house air conditionning or lawn watering in full summer.

Is there not artificial skiing tracks in Dubaï ?

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

My view is that they are anti-social because they are wasteful of a rapidly diminishing resource. An opinion only but I know shared by a growing number, particularly the young well-educated people who would, in the past, be potential luxury boat owners.

Just wait for them to get older. I fear that aging, they will think it is much easier to burn thousands of gals of fuel on a big boat than to paddle on a kayak.

[Guest625101138]

Here is some data that indicates boat fan is likely in the majority unless he lives in Iraq, Palestine, India or Germany:
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...mentra/631.php

The third paragraph rings a bell with me because I did not think it would be a majority.

Rick W

[boat fan]

Can someone here help me with information on starting a poll ?

What I had in mind was something like this.......

Poll: Would a boat with high fuel consumption present you with a moral / ethical dilemma , regardless of cost issues....or something similar...

Can anyone show me how to start something like this ?

I think it would keep politics out of this and would be interesting.

Good idea or not ?

[Ad Hoc]

B.F.

I think that is a good idea, since this has becomes Rick's personal political/ideological blog.

Go to your "user CP" i think...I'm not 100% sure myself...i just click as many buttons until something happens!

[Willallison]

Remarkably insightful article that Rick ... http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/...h-opinion.html

I agree that the market for paddle-craft will continue to grow. I'm all for it. I think the leisure boat market in general will continue to evolve - just as it has since since man first took to the water.
I maintain that the drive for more efficient boats will come from the marketing department, however. So perhaps rather than trying to convice the consumer, we ought to be concentrating our efforts on the marketing department.

The other part of the quote from Mr. Morse's Parting Shot was a reference to producing less expensive boats. Now this is a really interesting point to consider.
I think all would agree that there are always going to be people who want boats bigger than a sea kayak. The next step up from an open dinghy, I guess is the runabout / skiboat. Is it really possible to produce a comfortable 16ft boat for much less than the likes of Bayliner churn them out for?
And what about the average 40 footer? Making them lighter - the easiest way of making them more efficient - has a horrible habit of also making them more expensive. Slightly smaller engines and simpler systems can help, but won't really make that much difference to the overall cost.
Production volumes is one answer. Though on this point I agree with Rick - in many places there are already too many boats.
So, what we nee is for some bright young chap (or chick) to come up with a revolutionary material (sustainable and 'green', of course) that can rapidly and cheaply turn out reasonably high quality, lightweight boats.
There you go, Mr. Morse. Problem solved!

[Willallison]

Oh - on the poll idea. As any good pollitcal observer knows, it's all about how you phrase the question.

How about: Assuming that cost is not an issue, would you buy a 100K boat with all the bells and whistles that consumes 50 lph and does 30 knots, or an 80K one the same size with nothing but a porta-potti and a bbq that uses 25 lph and only does 15 knots....?

see what I mean...?

[Guest625101138]

I think the WHIO linked previously is an efficient boat. The builder has given it a lot of thought. He even went to the trouble of fabricating his own prop because there is nothing in the market place manufactured to suit such an easily driven hull.

The only commercial prop I have been able to find that suits easily driven hulls is the Bolly boat prop. I recommended it for this application:
http://www.nree.zhaw.ch/de/science/n...drofoiler.html

I was recently asked what speed could you get with a two person boat limited to 4HP and no longer than 10m. Attached shows a rendering of the outcome. This boat is estimated to do 18kts with 4HP. Started the guy thinking about testing an outboard on a two person surfski. Was not quite what he had in mind when he asked the question but you need an open mind when contemplating the possibilities.

Like I stated at the outset - The understanding of what constitutes easily driven hulls and efficient propulsion has been largely lost or buried by modern trends.

I think boats pictured on the linked thread will set the new trend for power boats:
Trimaran motorboat / stabilized monohull
Marina fees aside of course for those that are not trailerable.

Rick W

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Willallison

Oh - on the poll idea. As any good pollitcal observer knows, it's all about how you phrase the question.

How about: Assuming that cost is not an issue, would you buy a 100K boat with all the bells and whistles that consumes 50 lph and does 30 knots, or an 80K one the same size with nothing but a porta-potti and a bbq that uses 25 lph and only does 15 knots....?

see what I mean...?

That presumes only two choices. It is not the question. The question is about high fuel consumption in a pleasure boat creating a moral dilemma if money is no object.

My view on your question is that 25lph is rampant consumption so I have no suitable choice. 50lph for private pleasure craft is obscene.

I remember a while back that a forum member from Dubai asked how he could get the promised 50kts from his 40 footer with the twin 800HP engines. He was only getting 48kts. I wonder how much that little baby slurped every minute. I guess it is not a problem when you're sitting on oceans of it.

Rick W