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  #76  
Old 11-24-2009, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcfc View Post
Fuel price or marina fees are independant of the value of the boat that burns it or uses it.

Guess what value they must reach before being noticed by the owner of a brand new GB 41 , worth around 850 000$. (NB length 41 ft beam 16ft, tank 500 gal).
There will be riots in suburb for fuel price (and very other problems) before this owner notice anything in his boating bill.

So fuel price or marina prices are unlikely to change anything for the new boat market.

Are you are assuming that the " new boat market " consists only of those
$ 850 , 000 boats ....? .....I think not .
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  #77  
Old 11-24-2009, 05:42 PM
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Great thread his .....still catching up reading.
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  #78  
Old 11-24-2009, 05:55 PM
jdworld jdworld is offline
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New design challenges....

LOL! I am a newbie to this site, and to boat design in general. Not design, just boat design. I come from a "building" architect backround, not naval architecture - but alot of this I can relate to. Plus I'm working on a boat design right now that I hope becomes more than just for personal use. But wow, I am loving this discussion - very entertaining (in a good way), and I'm learning a lot. So take this as an outsider's look at things in the world of boating design:

1) Bells and whistles will always sell, whether stuck on a car, building, or boat - and i think will always be desired by both rich and poor.

2) Simple is great, efficient, and equates to affordability - and CAN look good too. But it seems that, esp when talking about something with a motor, for rich and poor alike, there's a very fine line between simple and boring. And what is "simple elegance" to a naval architect, might be "boring looking" to everyone else with a checkbook.

3) The pendulum is swinging the other way (finally) and "green" isn't a fad anymore. I can tell you first hand that it's standard practice in the building design world. Whether it's a campground outhouse, or a high end office building. And it's obviously permeating the car world. Whether it's a Prius or a Tesla. It has little to do with the consumer's wealth. So you think it's going to somehow bypass the world of boat design? Get on board or sink......pun intended.

Sure, the rich guy with the 500 gal gas tank on his super duper boat (inefficient) could care less about the cost of gas or how much he might save with something more efficient. But guess what? Free market society or not, That's OUR gas he's wasting, not his.

So why not challenge yourselves to design boats that have the best of all worlds, at ANY price level. Simple elegance that isn't boring, and the latest bells and whistles that not only impress the other boaters, but simultaneously incorporate the latest and greatest green technologies?

And just as a thought, or design challenge I should say, to ponder (again from an outsider)......ever consider how taxing the main material used in boat design is to the environment - fiberglass? I love the stuff, and yes it's easy to shape and water proof - but it's toxic as hell and petroleum based. And unlike most things these days, when a boat dies it can't be recycled. It sits rotting in some boat yard for generations.
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  #79  
Old 11-24-2009, 05:56 PM
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if these guys hang firmly in that big yacht arena, they will soon saturate the available marketplace and then will be forced to turn to the much broader potential market of leaner, more efficient products. It's that, or scale back the size of the company to reflect the obvious realities in front of them.

The big name boating manufacturers are still quite far from being out of trouble. The ones that are quick to resolve obvious flaws in their previous thinking and then produce products for the future, will be the ones to survive in the long term. They don't need to put those products into production just yet, but they better have them online and ready to go if they are at all on top of the game.
Saturate the market place they will.

Quote:
... nobody says the future products will be lean and efficicient boats.
Have you not been reading what some people have written here ?
Nobody ?
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  #80  
Old 11-24-2009, 06:01 PM
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Willallison Willallison is offline
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The move towards bigger, ever more complex and expensive boats is hardly a new phenomena. Its been happening for 50 years, so one could hardly argue that it's a reaction the current economical situation. There's more profit to be had building bigger boats. Simple.
And I expect that it will be this sector of the market that will rebound quickest. There are still plenty of people with money - those with personal wealth (as opposed to borrowed) still, in the main, have it. It's just not poltically correct to be spending it at the moment.

Quote:
I think boat should be very simple , I dont see the need for all the colors .
If all boats were off white it would be easier on the paint producers , and the money saved could be passed on to the consumer . A standard hull shape would make the production of boat trailers cheaper . Standardization of of hull form would mean that the training of boat building personnel cheaper . All of this could lead to a more harmonious society. There would be no more " my boat is bigger and better stuff . We could also shut down all those industries that make boat accessories , thus saving on energy .
I see a new age dawning. Well not really a new dawn , maybe just a remembrance of a simpler time . Yes lets go back in time , and we will call this new place Great Briton .
Err... Frank, I think you should call this new place Russia (the old one that is).
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  #81  
Old 11-24-2009, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Sure, the rich guy with the 500 gal gas tank on his super duper boat (inefficient) could care less about the cost of gas or how much he might save with something more efficient
Interesting ....because:

There has never been the sheer volume and depth in the gass guzzling used powerboat market as now.How often do you see the words 'PRICE REDUCTION !' in brokers ads these days.

A great number of those boats on offer are owned by not the super wealthy , but what is considered to be the' middle ' or 'upper middle class ' .It`s not just semantics either.
It`s those guys that are feeling pain at the bowser.With more to come of course.

Judging by the huge volume of used floating plastic on offer , that sector is substantial.These guys are praying someone will take that boat off their hands.Not many of those would buy a newer version of that old guzzler. In fact , many will give up boating ...for ever.

Some would at least consider buying a more economical boat , if they could unload what they have.
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  #82  
Old 11-24-2009, 06:37 PM
missinginaction missinginaction is offline
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Quote:
A great number of those boats on offer are owned by not the super wealthy , but what is considered to be the' middle ' or 'upper middle class ' .It`s not just semantics either.
It`s those guys that are feeling pain at the bowser.With more to come of course.
True words.....back a few years ago I was considering buying a new or late model used boat in the 30 to 40 foot range. After looking at what the market had to offer I settled on a 25 1/2 foot 1973 Silverton single engine gas that I've been restoring these past couple of years. You can search posts from me if you're curious about my progress.

Why did I do this?

1. Wanted a smaller single engined boat that I could single hand.
2. Simple design, walk around side decks (18" wide) low power and speed but fairly economical.
3. Dual station. (Flybridge)

Nothing in the new boat market that I could find would satify these criteria. Looking at the world going forward I think that I made the right decision. There are many at my local club who are saying "I wish I had a boat like yours" because they see the rising costs on the horizon.

Regards,

MIA
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  #83  
Old 11-24-2009, 06:44 PM
Tiny Turnip Tiny Turnip is offline
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Within any (design) field, there is naturally an area of specialist expertise, language, knowledge, philosophy. If a designer, who has the education, expertise, knowledge, in a field, wants to promote particular approaches, (sustainability; ‘beauty’ for example) then it is incumbent upon the designer to educate the client sufficiently in the language , knowledge, expertise. It is unreasonable to expect a client to buy into an idea they don’t understand. Is marketing about selling, (something, anything that will sell) or about selling an idea?
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  #84  
Old 11-24-2009, 06:52 PM
Guest625101138 Guest625101138 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdworld View Post
....
And just as a thought, or design challenge I should say, to ponder (again from an outsider)......ever consider how taxing the main material used in boat design is to the environment - fiberglass? I love the stuff, and yes it's easy to shape and water proof - but it's toxic as hell and petroleum based. And unlike most things these days, when a boat dies it can't be recycled. It sits rotting in some boat yard for generations.
Fibreglass is sand not petroleum based. The resin that gives it rigidity is a different matter. But the effort is always to reduce the amount of resin.

The top end designs for racing use carbon fibre and foam. Weighs next to nothing. Maybe these should enjoy a tax break for sequestering carbon. (Yeah I know it is energy intensive to produce but it is the material of the future)

Rick W
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  #85  
Old 11-24-2009, 06:55 PM
Tiny Turnip Tiny Turnip is offline
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swallow baycruiser

@ RHP (and anyone else interested in diddy lowtechish boats)

there's a blog from the owner of baycruiser #1 here:

http://www.jegsweb.co.uk/boats/baycruiser/home.htm

Julian is the webmaster for the forum for my wee boat the winklebrig, but he upgraded!

also of interest in the 'no bells or whistles' department is Mitchells 'Explorer' which looks interesting to me.

http://www.mitchellyachts.co.uk/explorer/
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  #86  
Old 11-24-2009, 07:36 PM
frank smith frank smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willallison View Post
The move towards bigger, ever more complex and expensive boats is hardly a new phenomena. Its been happening for 50 years, so one could hardly argue that it's a reaction the current economical situation. There's more profit to be had building bigger boats. Simple.
And I expect that it will be this sector of the market that will rebound quickest. There are still plenty of people with money - those with personal wealth (as opposed to borrowed) still, in the main, have it. It's just not poltically correct to be spending it at the moment.



Err... Frank, I think you should call this new place Russia (the old one that is).
Yes of course ,the Brirts gave up making anything , except for TV programs about the hey day of the Empire . I am afraid that this is happening here in the USA. We need a vibrant progressive industry . This can be the end of a viable marine industry, or the beginning of a new one . I hope it does not go the way of the British auto industry, and that people will open their eyes and take a good look at the possibilities. But It seem as though the new ideas are coming from out side . Another case of the old arrogant and blind destroying an industry .
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  #87  
Old 11-24-2009, 07:50 PM
Ad Hoc Ad Hoc is offline
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"..ever consider how taxing the main material used in boat design is to the environment - fiberglass?.."

Exactly!

"...Fibreglass is sand not petroleum based..."

So, when they quarry for: sand, kaolin, limestone and colemanite, ( the constituent parts of Glass) this is environmentally friendly??
I think not.
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  #88  
Old 11-24-2009, 07:55 PM
Tiny Turnip Tiny Turnip is offline
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heartwarming searches to be had on youtube: wooden boat building; classic boat building, ... etc. enjoy the antidote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QeRt...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YSUc...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWeD-...eature=related

then look for them sailing. Aaah!
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  #89  
Old 11-24-2009, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missinginaction View Post

1. Wanted a smaller single engined boat that I could single hand.
2. Simple design, walk around side decks (18" wide) low power and speed but fairly economical.
3. Dual station. (Flybridge)

Nothing in the new boat market that I could find would satify these criteria. Looking at the world going forward I think that I made the right decision. There are many at my local club who are saying "I wish I had a boat like yours" because they see the rising costs on the horizon.

Regards,

MIA
Have we just identified 'a market ' ?
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  #90  
Old 11-24-2009, 08:02 PM
Timothy Timothy is offline
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I cruise on my 30 year old sail boat for six months and live in Thailand for the other six on a very limited budget and live very well indeed. I have been sailing Georgian bay in Ontario Canada for the last three years and and have been struck by the incredible numbers of camping kayakers. For every yacht I see anchored there are at least ten of these kayaks hauled ashore in places no yacht could go. Within minutes of navigating with their hand held waterproof gps to their already selected campsite (google earth?) it seems inflatable tents equipped with inflatable mattresses, are pitched, solar panels are set up, gas cookers are boiling water for tea ,and computers are on the internet down loading tonights movie. To top it of these people only left Toronto only a few hours before. It seems to me this is an example of the simplest of boats enjoying a type of renaissance because of the development of hi tech and light weight and portable gear.
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