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  #61  
Old 11-24-2009, 09:38 AM
fcfc fcfc is offline
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Fuel price or marina fees are independant of the value of the boat that burns it or uses it.

Guess what value they must reach before being noticed by the owner of a brand new GB 41 , worth around 850 000$. (NB length 41 ft beam 16ft, tank 500 gal).
There will be riots in suburb for fuel price (and very other problems) before this owner notice anything in his boating bill.

So fuel price or marina prices are unlikely to change anything for the new boat market.
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  #62  
Old 11-24-2009, 10:36 AM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Fuel and marina slip prices have already changed things... at least they have in SoCal's Marina del Rey. Attached is a report done earlier this year to address future marina revenue and use projections... see below

This is fairly hefty download, so be patient.

One of the key observations is that more and more, 30' and under boat owners are moving away from marina pricing issues altogether and buying trailerable boats for dry storage boating use. The hottest trailerable length used to be down around 26' and less and now it is up at 30' and threatening to go higher.

Let's face it... rich folks (and I'm not one of them) will always opt for the most luxo item they can afford. It's their entitlement, or so they take it that way. Over the last ten years, or so, the big boats have been one of the few steady sales areas in the manufacturing end of things. The numbers aren't very big, compared to the more mainstream sized and priced craft, but at least they have not taken the big dive in sales that have been seen in the smaller, less expensive end of the spectrum.

In the meantime, the average guy who was fully stretched on the expectation that the cash cow gravy train would just keep on rolling, is left with the unsavory reality of a smaller disposable income, increasing marina and fuel costs and a boat that has seriously dropped in value due to a rapidly swelling used vessel market.

Virtually every single boat manufacturer is now, or has already been, looking into more fuel-efficient designs to address the clamoring from the buyers. It's no real big secret that fuel prices will not be going down over the long term. Wages have not kept pace very well, even in the good times and they are certainly not going to be ramped-up any time soon if the recession stays smugly entrenched, as it has been.

Very soon, all this is going to result in a very distinct turn-around in the boating market, and it will be driven very strongly by market pressure. When I say very soon, I mean that you have to look at the event cycle as more in the five-year range of things, and not next month. Short term (as in, this year, kind of stuff) forecasting can be a reasonably accurate source of info, but in this climate, it's a full-on crapshoot. Any rebound in the economy of the world, along with modest job growth, will shoot fuel prices through the roof... just due to pent-up demand, if not because of a desire to get a leg-up on the competition.

Fuel prices, alone, will further drive the boating market to more and more economical designs that can be had for more and more reasonable prices. That paradigm speaks to modest craft with reduced gadgets and amenities. The driving point of the original comments that opened the thread, while directed at designers and builders, was, in my opinion, a clarion call, rather than a dictate. We (the industry) might just be caught flat-footed if we are not ready with the necessary thinking and solution oriented products that will be needed when this hoped-for turn around takes place.

Having a shortage of well thought out products will further serve to alienate the potential buying customers. Since boating is already competing heavily with, literally, hundreds of fascinating and less expensive recreational pursuits, the lack of a quick response will mean a further degradation of the boating industry as a whole.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf MdRSlipPricingreport032309.pdf (8.35 MB, 1133 views)
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  #63  
Old 11-24-2009, 10:57 AM
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yipster yipster is offline
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modern plastic boats i prefer better than tar old wood rusting steel and petroleum
the midcabin was a good find and there are more samples of progress
without having read the article or all of the quikly growing thread my belive is
boats should be a little above 10 meter with headroom and full facillity's
hard chines and less power by smart design should keep it affordable
true, many buyers of new boats dont give a hoot over price nor consumtion
have to come back on this couse i actually havent found what to say no to
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  #64  
Old 11-24-2009, 11:39 AM
portacruise portacruise is offline
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Is in possible for designers to actually restrict free markets by offering only certain types eco boats? Some wealthy will have what they want even if they have to build one of a kind as they want it, (Donald Trump) while others have no interest at all (Warren Buffet). Personality will dictate the high end market regardless of what designers decide to offer.

I personally think Trump's indulgent lifestyle makes him even wealthier. There are business write offs and possible appreciation for unique indulgent yachts that can't be found anywhere else, because they cost more to build from scratch. The free publicity supports a reputation that would otherwise cost him a fortune. Clients come to him to meet on his yacht that only goes out perhaps once a year. The more money he wastes, the more networking and profitable deals he turns. Some of the smaller fish that do business his way, catch on to what he is doing and will try to emulate on as high a scale as they can afford. So these high end yachts may essentially be FREE at the very least when everything is taken into account. I don't really know if Trump even has a yacht, just using him as an example, for the concept.

Lots of examples exist of trying to control markets, but do any really prevail in the long run is the question. I have nothing against the wealthy or what they do, in fact I think we need them to drive some sections of the economy.....

Porta

Quote:
Originally Posted by boat fan View Post
This was about affordable , aethetically pleasing , practical.
The builder`s question was : How do we go ( back to ) that ........?
Not economic knowledge.Not being the ' Porsche ' of boats....

The original post was :
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  #65  
Old 11-24-2009, 11:56 AM
fcfc fcfc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind View Post
Virtually every single boat manufacturer is now, or has already been, looking into more fuel-efficient designs to address the clamoring from the buyers.
I am not sure at all.

Beneteau , at least in Europe, is a large manufacturer. The latest sail offering is the Oceanis 58. The biggest of the gamme. Meanwhile, the smaller boats (21 and 25) have not been changed for near 20 years.

And in their financial end year statement, they announced they will target the powerboat market, size 50 ft to 80 ft, where there is still buyers with money.

Jeanneau, the other big french sailboat manufacturer has made the same move : http://www.prestige-yachts.fr/en/26/prestige+60.html I do not call this fuel efficient design.

And even Grand Banks , former American Marine, that once sold 32 ft powerboats with single 4cyl 80 hp engine, has now an entry level at 2*425 hp. If this can be called entry level ... Latest model of Grand Banks is a 53ft, 2* 715 hp, around 2M$. Very very far from the GB 36 that launched the yard 45 years ago.

Quote:
Having a shortage of well thought out products
I do not think so. Not too many builders have moods. Most just try to build what sells, and not loose money in the process.

Quote:
the lack of a quick response will mean a further degradation of the boating industry as a whole
Yes and no. The lack of solvable buyers for boats you can build and sell with a margin will mean a further degradation of the boating industry as a whole.
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  #66  
Old 11-24-2009, 12:22 PM
frank smith frank smith is offline
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I think boat should be very simple , I dont see the need for all the colors .
If all boats were off white it would be easier on the paint producers , and the money saved could be passed on to the consumer . A standard hull shape would make the production of boat trailers cheaper . Standardization of of hull form would mean that the training of boat building personnel cheaper . All of this could lead to a more harmonious society. There would be no more " my boat is bigger and better stuff . We could also shut down all those industries that make boat accessories , thus saving on energy .
I see a new age dawning. Well not really a new dawn , maybe just a remembrance of a simpler time . Yes lets go back in time , and we will call this new place Great Briton .
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  #67  
Old 11-24-2009, 12:23 PM
fcfc fcfc is offline
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Yet another french builder that switched from small boats to bigger, recently : http://www.rhea-marine.fr/gamme/index-17-67.html

It is not complex to forecast that the offer will soon be bigger than the market size. And some will loose money (in the best case) or go bankrupcy.

But Jeanneau, Beneteau, Rea are all currently producing small powerboats. If they all switched to bigger at the same time, it s because they could no longer live producing smaller boats. They all know what their competitors do, and that the weakest will die. They just each expect not to be the weakest.
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  #68  
Old 11-24-2009, 12:41 PM
frank smith frank smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcfc View Post
Yet another french builder that switched from small boats to bigger, recently : http://www.rhea-marine.fr/gamme/index-17-67.html

It is not complex to forecast that the offer will soon be bigger than the market size. And some will loose money (in the best case) or go bankrupcy.

But Jeanneau, Beneteau, Rea are all currently producing small powerboats. If they all switched to bigger at the same time, it s because they could no longer live producing smaller boats. They all know what their competitors do, and that the weakest will die. They just each expect not to be the weakest.
You say " recently" , surly the boats were in the pipe line before the economic down turn. They may be stuck with a few molds to get rid of .
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  #69  
Old 11-24-2009, 12:54 PM
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daiquiri daiquiri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcfc View Post
Yet another french builder that switched from small boats to bigger...
It is all so simple in my view Fcfc...

First consideration:
In the times of crisis the gap between those who have money and those who don't becomes deeper and wider then ever. Those who have money - have really BIG money. The others have no money.

Second consideration:
If it is not for work, any boat one might buy (even the smallest one) is a luxury item, whatever someone might say. He/she is investing a huge amount of money for pleasure purpose only. A boat is probably one of the worst monetary investments one can make, unless he/she makes his living out of it. In times of crisis very few ordinary folks will buy luxury items of such a huge value.

So, since builders of pleasure yachts are producers of luxury items, and they have to survive somehow, it is so natural they will target the only people who can currently buy their products - those with BIG money. It means big boats, with loads of add-ons and made in exactly the opposite direction to the one indicated (with noble intentions) in the opening post.
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  #70  
Old 11-24-2009, 01:09 PM
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RHP RHP is offline
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Great thread, well started Chris.

This is my favourite boat at the moment:

http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/content/view/148/118/
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  #71  
Old 11-24-2009, 01:13 PM
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daiquiri daiquiri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RHP View Post
This is my favourite boat at the moment:
http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/content/view/148/118/
Very nice, but those double-enders in the pic above all plain beautiful!
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  #72  
Old 11-24-2009, 01:30 PM
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Agreed but I´m a big lad and need a bit of space.
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  #73  
Old 11-24-2009, 02:27 PM
Chris Ostlind Chris Ostlind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcfc View Post

I am not sure at all.

Beneteau , at least in Europe, is a large manufacturer... Meanwhile, the smaller boats (21 and 25) have not been changed for near 20 years.

And in their financial end year statement, they announced they will target the powerboat market, size 50 ft to 80 ft, where there is still buyers with money.

Jeanneau, the other big french sailboat manufacturer has made the same move... I do not call this fuel efficient design.

The original quote suggests: "Virtually every single boat manufacturer is now, or has already been, looking into more fuel-efficient designs to address the clamoring from the buyers."

This does not say that they have actually done anything substantive about the pending issue, such as build production tools and have them integrated into the manufacturing flow. It says that they have looked into the future realities and if they are good businessmen, they have already set something in place to deal with the future of the business.

Considering that the Euro and the big American builders have been flirting with bankruptcy recently, if not downright had to reorganize under some form of legal protection, there's much to be said for the lack of vision within the mainstream boating industry. They got caught with their pants down and had to execute emergency, "let's build some really big, economy resistant boats to save our butts", kind of action. That is a stop-gap measure, at best, if a company is really looking to be a full spectrum manufacturer.

If these guys hang firmly in that big yacht arena, they will soon saturate the available marketplace and then will be forced to turn to the much broader potential market of leaner, more efficient products. It's that, or scale back the size of the company to reflect the obvious realities in front of them.

The big name boating manufacturers are still quite far from being out of trouble. The ones that are quick to resolve obvious flaws in their previous thinking and then produce products for the future, will be the ones to survive in the long term. They don't need to put those products into production just yet, but they better have them online and ready to go if they are at all on top of the game.
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  #74  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:25 PM
frank smith frank smith is offline
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The used market is flooded right now , so I can buy an inefficient old boat for a song . So what do I care about the gas cost. There are some nice efficient
designs out there, but weight is comfort , and that take power to move.
There are people who have there boats dropped in on friday afternoon.
and want to get somwhere fast and in comfort . Do you tell them to limit their cruising to 20 miles . Hopefully more advance technology will allow us to
have the boat we want in the future
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  #75  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:45 PM
fcfc fcfc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Ostlind View Post
It says that they have looked into the future realities and if they are good businessmen, they have already set something in place to deal with the future of the business.
Of course, but nobody says the future products will be lean and efficicient boats. Beneteau is listed at french stock exchange. So they must have some legal publications. The future bussiness is high end motorboats, holiday housing, high end wood parts for ecological houses. The housing parts, holiday and ecological already count for 25% of beneteau sales. The motorboats another 25%.

You take the position of the customer who wants all for free. I suggest you take the position of the builder, what technology you can use, at what cost, and to sell for your living (price should cover all expenses, no losses allowed) to whom.
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