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  #46  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:13 AM
fcfc fcfc is offline
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Tata need to buy "luxury" brands to stay in car bussiness. It is a big spending. Porsche does not need it.
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  #47  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:20 AM
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Tata need to buy "luxury" brands to stay in car bussiness. It is a big spending. Porsche does not need it.
That just makes no sense at all actually. Why? ...they are making money without them. They need to buy nothing with those levels of sales..They need to further develop their Indian and Chinese market.Maximize their potential market share.
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  #48  
Old 11-24-2009, 05:20 AM
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They need to further develop their Indian and Chinese market.Maximize their potential market share.
Yes. For this, they need to buy an image.

Back to boating.

The latest Beneteau boat is a 34 ft "trawler", going 25 kts with 425 hp. And sold slightly above 200 000.

If you cut the top speed from 25 kts to 9 kts, how much it will cut the price ? going from a 30 000 engine to a 15 000 engine ? Say 25 000$, including all auxiliaries. Now, try to sell a 9 kts trawler at 175 000 and a 25 kts at 200 000.

Still cut the genset, the fridge, the hot water, the electric toilet, some sound proofing. You have saved another 25 000. Try to sell it. Show it to the family of someone who still has 150 000 to spend for leisure. Hear the reactions.

And then show them a significantly smaller 30 ft boat same price 150 000, but with all the bells and whistles, and going 25 kts.

Which one they will choose ?
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  #49  
Old 11-24-2009, 05:55 AM
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Willallison Willallison is offline
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"As an industry, we boat builders and designers of pleasure craft are accountable for the current trends: expensive, wasteful, impractical boats and yachts. How, then, do we lead the market back to affordable, aesthetically pleasing, practical craft?"
I beg to differ on the 1st point. As stated - this is an industry - and few have made money from selling leasure items that people don't want. The consumer must also accept some responsibility for the 'current trends'. I once again make the point that people will continue to buy expensive, wasteful, impractical boats for as long as they can afford them. And that for the scope of their use, many are successful designs (though I do draw the line at floating condo's that can plane, purely as a result of installing enormous engines, since they never go far anyway, what's the point in going there fast?).
As to the question... that's much tougher...I look forward to reading the full article to see if Mr.Morse has any suggestions. For my money...figuratively speaking... I would say it will have to come from the superyacht realm. When two of three truly insightful wealthy individuals commission succesful superyachts that are simple, elegant, efficient and practical, then we may finally see some of that thinking filter down the line.
I can't see it coming from the other way.
Rick - you are an exception to the rule. Most who would buy a hobie on their credit card would rather buy Riviera on their gold amex. That's not to say they don't want a Hobie - just that it sits on the deck of their Riv.....

My kids (both boys) are 4 & 6. Yes... I know... the computer games are likely to find their way aboard, whether I like it or not....
It's hard for me to imagine either of them not wanting to spend time on a boat though. My whole family grew up playing on boats and we all continue to do so. Most of their friends have boats, so they socialise whilst afloat. Hey - you may be right...but I hope not....
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  #50  
Old 11-24-2009, 06:24 AM
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daiquiri daiquiri is offline
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Originally Posted by fcfc View Post
...And then show them a significantly smaller 30 ft boat same price 150 000€, but with all the bells and whistles, and going 25 kts.
Which one they will choose ?
fcfc, you are spot-on there.
It is buyer's, not NA's, mentality that need to be changed. It is a social and cultural challenge which goes fare beyond any single boatbuilder's capability.

And, in addition to what you said, I see time as the main problem here. Or better said, a generalized lack of time.

Unless we are talking about a retired person or about a person who won the lottery and has all the free-time in the world to dedicate for his pleasures, a common wealthy person who is interested in buying a pleasure boat will typically have some 2, maybe 3 weeks per year available for vacations. Plus maybe few short weekend trips to a nearby bay with friends and family... Not all of that brief free time can be dedicated to boating activity, so the time window left for the usage of that boat gets pretty restricted.
Their money didn't come for free but was earned by working 10-12 hours a day, and some of them will have put their health at risk with this over-stressed way of living. The boating comes as an efficient way of putting all those thoughts aside and recharging their batteries before the next office-battle starts.

Furthermore, boathandling is not a stress-free activity. Many things can go wrong, and if they do you may put your and other people's life at risk.

Vice-versa, staying at anchor in some lonely bay reachable only with a boat, sunbathing, swimming, playing with kids, having a dinner with your family and your friends in the cockpit - those are stress-relieving activities (joys of life, I would say). And that's what the type of clients we are talking about need.

So, the SOR becomes a pretty short one for this type of boaters:
1) I need to stay comfortable, I need to recharge my mental batteries;
2) I will go out only if the weather is good, my boathandling capabilities are very limited because I don't have time to improve them;
3) I have very little free-time available, so I need to get to the destination quickly, drop the anchor and then don't want to think about it for the rest of the day;
4) I have the money and am willing to pay for all the extras necessary to sattisfy this SOR;
5) I might be fully aware of the environmental issues related to this way of living, but it still doesn't change the fact that I don't have time.

So, you guys tell me what kind of boat will come out of these considerations?
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  #51  
Old 11-24-2009, 06:31 AM
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Landlubber Landlubber is offline
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daiquiri,

....sadly another bubble boat...........I rest my case Your Honour.
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  #52  
Old 11-24-2009, 07:19 AM
FAST FRED FAST FRED is offline
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"How, then, do we lead the market back to affordable, aesthetically pleasing, practical craft?" - "One gives the client what the client wants."

It needs to start with how marinas charge for slip space.

A 50 ft skinny boat of about 12ft beam will travel reasonably fast on little fuel its "competition " the 35 ft boat with 16 ft beam , 3 or 4 stories tall will have more dockside cottage room and PAY LESS for slip space.

In its 50 hours a year the fast speed fuel burn will eat the slip savings, but the owners are OK with that.

Charging by the sq ft , rather than LOA might get us on the path to "better" boats.


FF
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  #53  
Old 11-24-2009, 07:21 AM
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daiquiri daiquiri is offline
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Charging by the sq ft , rather than LOA might get us on the path to "better" boats.
Or charging just by beam?
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  #54  
Old 11-24-2009, 07:31 AM
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You make some good points daiquirie.


Quote:
It is a social and cultural challenge which goes far beyond any single boatbuilder's capability.
Yes , but collectively designers and manufacturers can have some influence. And make a difference. You cannot buy what is not offered.

Quote:
Unless we are talking about a retired person or about a person who won the lottery and has all the free-time in the world to dedicate for his pleasures, a common wealthy person who is interested in buying a pleasure boat will typically have some 2, maybe 3 weeks per year available for vacations.
Yes , but there is also a growing market sector among the about to retire 'baby boomers' , at least in this country.It`s growing.Substantially.

In Australia that sector is quite substantial already.I suspect its similar in Europe , USA , and other parts of the world.Some of this sector has significant disposable income.From various sources.I believe that this is where change can come from,but , the product has to be " ready " for them.

The majority of the 'boomer market would not bother to commission a custom build.Too expensive and too much waiting.Offer those people some style ,and elegance , without too many frills at a reasonable price , and you will make sales.These people are the most likely to buy the boat we are talking about.Some are looking for it.

They already " know " it ,even if only in a sketchy " I remember when..... " kind of way .Anything from childhood memories in the fifties and sixties , even seventies.....it just has to be available.No waiting .Buy now.....

This sector of buyer has time for boating , but try to " sell " them the idea of waiting a year for their custom build , before he / she can go boating and you will likely lose the sale.It`s a good place to start ......
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  #55  
Old 11-24-2009, 07:33 AM
Guest625101138 Guest625101138 is offline
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Originally Posted by Willallison View Post
......
Rick - you are an exception to the rule. Most who would buy a hobie on their credit card would rather buy Riviera on their gold amex. That's not to say they don't want a Hobie - just that it sits on the deck of their Riv.....

My kids (both boys) are 4 & 6. Yes... I know... the computer games are likely to find their way aboard, whether I like it or not....
It's hard for me to imagine either of them not wanting to spend time on a boat though. My whole family grew up playing on boats and we all continue to do so. Most of their friends have boats, so they socialise whilst afloat. Hey - you may be right...but I hope not....
I don't believe I am an exception. I see that I am part of an emerging trend to more practical and sensitive boating. Something that is easily available to anyone with an interest in boating as recreation. No guilt about wasting limited resources.

I expect there are many young people who would not choose to buy a luxury boat even if they had the money (or credit) to do it. I think times have changed.

At 4 and 6 your kids are babies. When you make a significant commitment to a boat there is a tendency to want to get value from it. You more or less feel obliged to use it. It creates unnecessary pressure. Rather than recreation it becomes a chore. I used to go fishing or water skiing when my school mates were playing weekend footy or cricket. Being in a large family I could not do my own thing until I was older - I was born into a boating family and thats what we did. With my kids I gave them the opportunity to experience as much as possible. They soon moved to their own interests and it was not boating.

It would be interesting to know how many people here actually spend more more than 100 hours with their family on a boat each year for the last ten years. There are so many better ways to waste money these days.

Rick W
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  #56  
Old 11-24-2009, 07:55 AM
Ad Hoc Ad Hoc is offline
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Originally Posted by FAST FRED View Post
Charging by the sq ft , rather than LOA might get us on the path to "better" boats.
FF
The old-fashioned commercial way....tonnage!
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  #57  
Old 11-24-2009, 07:56 AM
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This isn't a new thing folks. The industry has gone through this several times. The dark years of the late 70's and early 80's where you couldn't give a pleasure boat away. The late 50's when fuel prices jumped and the economy was in the tank. This one forced the automotive industry in the US, to actually do their first "down size" of American iron. I remember reading old Capt.. Nat complaining about the economic down turn, after the turn of the century causing his contracts to fall off a cliff. Dozens of boat builders failed during the great depression. The industry has seen many little "burps" where a few years of flat sales had to be "survived", but was the net gain afterwards improved, efficient models, reflective of the "new" times? Nope, the same previous models, maybe dressed up a touch, new styling clues, etc.

Jack fuel costs through the roof and keep them there for at least 3 years, then you'll see some innovation. And yes, this innovation will be at the custom, big, fat, pompous end of the market, where it's impact will be seen and felt. A new Bubba's boat just doesn't make a big enough splash when launched, unless it runs on air or recycled beer.
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  #58  
Old 11-24-2009, 08:00 AM
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yep...I did mention fuel costs too .....that's the real catalyst for change.

Even the semi- fat boats will then be prohibitively expensive to run PAR.
They will have to " down size " a little more substantially than before.
So they will need to get creative too. The used boat stockpile is growing.prices will have to tumble.
If the US dollar does collapse ,which looks likely, it won`t matter either way.No buyers for the dinosaurs.
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  #59  
Old 11-24-2009, 08:09 AM
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Don't hold your breath waiting on the dollar to collapse, we've been here before too . . .
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  #60  
Old 11-24-2009, 08:17 AM
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Yes ...and look what happened ( in )1929.
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