Dare to Say No

I stop here the pseudo social political rant.

See one of my older post that show how hard is to market efficiency : http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/dare-say-no-30261-9.html#post318291

Yet another efficient (dutch) boat designed circa 2006: http://www.stadtdesign.com/products/vds608_653.htm

Initially designed as "Motor Launch 40" built by YACHT DIMENSION THAILAND CO. LTD.
Then can be seen as "Classic Solution 40" http://www.alibaba.com/productshowimg/gbbthailand-12193938-11330025/Classic_Solution_40.html by Global Boatbuilders Co.

And now as "Fineliner 40 cabin" http://www.finelineryachting.nl/en/modellen/fineliner-40ft-cabin.html by finelineryachting.

All this within 3 years.

And still more expensive, and less accomodation than beneteau Trawler 34 in the old post.


Current boat like the Beneteau are designed to offer the most bang the potential buyer is seeking for the minimum bucks. The efficiency is not part of the game. As soon as you add efficiency, you degrade bang/bucks ration, and the sale is lost. Witness the tumultuous sale history of the Rangeboat or FineLiner 40.

 

Thanks, make sense.
Cheers
Daniel

 

The plain truth!

Fully concur! And for that reason I quoted in full length.......

Since ages I ask the people: what´s fuel cost? NOTHING! No matter how big your engines or boat. (usually there is a certain relation in both sizes)
The annual cost of a dock sitting boat are already high. And it does´nt cost extra to move the boat! Often the opposite is true, a boat in regular use is cheaper than a sitting one. (make your calculations mates before you contradict)

So, all the rant for nothing!
The client buys what he likes, we build it. So easy is it.
And all our dreams about more efficient boating can become reality only when the market has proven that such trend pays. (for both, the user and the industry)

Regards
Richard

 

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Cruisers/Navarana.html

this is cool .

 

No one is going to tell you what to buy......except your wife...and your kids...and your neighbors....and your brother-in-law......and your grand kids....and your banker......and your accountant.....and your marina manger......local regulation authorities......national regulation authorities....international standard authorities......almost no one!

But as a designer I can get busy and demonstrate to you what is possible. When the Shipyard Raid sails into a harbour here in the Gulf Islands, people in "average Bayliners" are astounded. That 40-50 people could go cruising for a week in 15'-25' open boats, and have a great time using almost no fuel oil. I hope that joe average gets at least a glimpse of an alternative possibility. This is what Rick with his pedal boats and the Earth Race folks are up to......

"Dare to Say No", is once again a statement that individual action does matter....whether you believe it or not is up to you......

 

Holy Cow, this thread has morphed some and then morphed again as it circles around and around.

I'm seeing a fairly two sided argument in all this and it's very nicely dug-in as the proponents work to protect that which they feel is valuable. They're both valuable points and the remarkable reality of it all is that they do have the potential to meet on some common ground. I'll illustrate in a decently parallel industry about which I have a solid level of understanding... land-based architecture.

I've been professionally shooting photos for architects and major construction companies for over 30 years now. Back when I started in this trade, most of the architects were only concerned about satisfying the rather base needs of their clients. Every once in a while, a firm would move out of the existing paradigm to explore more efficient uses of materials and to see if a "Greening" process might take hold in the business. Usually, they scuttled right on back to the heavy handed fold like the others and paid their bills accordingly.

Then, something happened that changed the whole thing. Prices for raw materials went through the roof, mostly due to the various and sundry price hikes in the petroleum industry that far exceeded the existing paycheck realities of most people. At that point, lots of developers of raw property started to ask for more efficiently designed buildings. Buildings that not only offered less expensive tenant costs, but also made their investment a more attractive location. It is attractive because of the rapid awareness in the mind of the renting/buying public about the costs of power/utilities and the inevitable effect that they had on the cost of doing business.

Over the last several years, the business of having put up a building, be it a residence, or commercial structure, has shifted to a very strong awareness cycle of having taken the trouble and in some cases, the added expense of making the building more efficient. The benefits are tangible, the buildings are worth more when they are sold and the tenants that rent/buy are more ready than ever to move in that direction, as a result.

There's also something more and it touches directly on the argument that one needs to give the clients what they want. What will you do when the clients start to ask for more efficient boats, better design solutions with more effective materials and systems and lower costs? Will you be standing there having built your reputation on producing fuel hungry machines and having not one example of a craft that fits the new paradigm? How do you think that will effect your bottom line while you defend the previous practices while standing on the side of the dock?

The arguments I see coming out of the boat design and build industry in this thread are very much like the arguments that used to exist in the building industry for land based structures. Inevitably, guys, that sort of position is going to be swept-up in a full paradigm shift in the same fashion as the land based architects and builders have undergone. It's coming whether you like it or not. It's not going to pass us by without a very nasty swift kick and it's going to be much easier to make an adjustment if we simply begin the process of understanding how this is an opportunity rather than a big problem.

Taking sides to protect one's turf is natural response. Nobody really wants to give something away that they perceive as their comfort zone. Unfortunately, if one does maintain a clamped-down approach to how they view these potential changes, then they are also putting their own professional careers at risk, as the industry will simply pass them by and never look back. To back that up, I know of several, land based design firms that were at the peak of their profession with very talented guys. They refused to buy into the efficient building changeover and now, they are merely litter on the roadside of the architecture profession.

Before anyone hauls out the tired, these boats are pure pleasure objects and they don't fall into the category about which I speak, argument.... absorb this set of facts:

I live in and around what is basically a resort community in the Rocky Mountains. There are seven, world class ski resorts within 40 minute's drive of my front door. All of these locations have very high priced real estate which is virtually all committed to the free time pleasure format that you guys have ascribed in your arguments. There's not one single luxury, pleasure oriented home that has been built in these environments for the last 7, or 8 years, that is not total state of the art when it comes to building/energy efficiency parameters.

In fact, buyers, such as any number of oil-rich Princes from the Middle East, who are snatching-up homes in the ultra-ritzy area called Deer Valley, aren't even looking at a home unless it is of the highest of performance when it comes to energy efficient design and systems in place. Mind you, these are 10,000+ sq. ft. mountain resort homes that run well into the $20 and $30 million dollar range and these guys are the ones selling the oil out of the ground. The same paradigm also applies to all the new structures at lower purchase prices.

Take your pick gents. It's only your career, disposable income and family comfort about which you argue. You can be stubborn and refuse to acknowledge that which is at your doorstep, but you won't be able to afford to do it for long.

The very first post in this thread was a call to arms, so to speak. A wake up shout that said, basically, if it's coming our way, anyhow... why not take a leadership position and take the steps to set a standard of responsibility?

This doesn't mean you need to stop doing what you are right now, but it does mean that it's time to let go of the existing mindset and start drifting, fast, to another and more important, objective in your careers.

...And Brother Randy Hough... I just can't resist. Since you hauled out the "whiny tree hugger" reference with such glee, I really have to come back at you with the highest order of Sniveling Dilettante Consumer. I'm making a hat for you. Wear it with pride. ;-)

 

While I can appreciate the position that "it's my money and the designer will build what I tell him to", the vast majority of boats are not built for a client per se.
Production boats are built to the perceived needs of a market.
Buyers simply select from what is available.

I believe the issue of whether the consumer is the cart or the horse is not entirely clear.

I think this threads topic is a appropriate challenge to designers and does not violate the prerogatives of the 'clients'.
Designers and engineers shape society by their work. As informed professionals they are best placed to understand technologies and materials as they become available.
This understanding I believes carries a innate challenge to use these advances towards designs of value and benefit to the end users.

 

what ? Back to the Bauhaus , We just got all the housing projects torn down,
God save us from engineers, social and other wise. Leave the future in the hands of the Idea men and the dreamer , we will call the engineers when we need them .

 

Is that not so ?

 

My dilemma is a bit different to most here.

I started playing with pedal boats to learn about hull shapes and I had a particular interest in oscillating foils because I know a fellow who holds a patent on a rotating version of this. A very unconventional propeller.

After I had been at it for a while I thought it would be great to hit 12kph. That was a max target. Then I saw what Decavitator had already done. I have now got to a sustainable level of my max target and I have found pedal boats are great fun.

I know most of you have not experienced the joy, power and control you get from a pedal boat like mine and I doubt that you ever will because it is clear that the vast majority see it beneath them. It is simply not sexy in their eyes. Looking cool is not an issue for me; my consolation is that my resting heart rate is under 60bpm.

My dilemma is that I intended to move on to solar electric but I am having so much fun with pedal boats. There are many interested people because I get regular requests for information regarding the boats and a few requests to make boats for them. (My cobbled together web site, that I do not advertise in any way because its cost increases with traffic, gets lots of traffic.)

I can see many opportunities for different and fun boats with pedal power and I can see an endless array of things for solar power as well as wind turbines. Sails are already being exploited to very high engineering standards.

I am playing with these ideas more for their engineering interest and overall recreation than any potential commercial outcome because it would then be work. But I do see opportunities for commercial development.

I do not see many designers/product developers with sound engineering knowledge working on clever things that offer cool alternatives. Greg Ketterman is certainly an exception here and I really admire his work and the Hobie marketing. I also admire what Mark Drela has done and the knowledge he has. These guys have been my inspiration. I should also mention Mike Lampi, Vic Garza, Dave Sugden, Bob Stuart, Warren Loomis, Greg Kolodziejzyk and quite a few others who have offered interesting ideas that I have explored/exploited.

Then there are guys like Leo Lazauskas, Martin Hepperle and Martijn Van Engeland who have developed powerful but simple tools to enable alternatives to be explored inexpensively without having to waste money building things that don't turn out as expected.

I have taken an extreme position on this thread because I am aiming to stretch peoples' imagination. It is clear I have alienated a few (possibly most) but maybe they will think a bit more about where they are heading, what they might try, what they might buy and the factors influencing our future.

For me fun and horse power do not have a direct correlation. In fact it is close to an inverse relationship.

Rick W

 

Chris, is the phrase you’re looking for: [wringing of hands, tearing of hair] ‘I’ve created a monster!‘ ?

Excellent post.

My take on the parallel you draw:

I am a (landbased) architect. I acted as sustainability consultant for the headquarters of the Ecology Building Society here in the UK. However, I have also worked for balls out commercial developers during the last recession, when I was in danger of losing my house under mortgage arrears. I have a pressured full time job and am a single parent to two boys under 10, have given up my organic allotment, and find it hard to recycle properly and not use the car instead of the bus. I understand the pressures that mitigate against being true to principles too.

Now, I direct a degree programme in the subject, and spend much time thinking about education.

In an earlier post in this thread, I put forward the view that if a designer wishes to change the world in which they function, they have to take on the ‘education’ of a client base. At one level, this may simply be marketing – the carving out of a market niche, in the hope that it will grow.

At another level, it can be a political act. This perhaps is the key in making change. The ideas of a designer are *made* - become physical things, which are photogenic, sexy, possibly iconic. They make good stories, good media fodder. It is a good profession to be in to, through marketing and PR, capture the eye and ear of politicians, influence makers of policy and law.

In the UK, we can see the influence of high profile architectural schemes like BedZED and Hockerton, small organisations like the Ecology Building Society, principled contractors like Amazon Nails, and many others, on the politicians.

At the end of the day, if market and fashion, which designers, if they are smart, *can* lead, don’t persuade the client, then we need to aim at the policy makers, and get change through LEGISLATION. In a few years, all UK homes will have to be zero carbon, by law. Not as good as zero energy, but a step on the road. The momentum and leadership of like minded parties within the industry has been significant in taking this step, and demonstrating a will to underpin the international summits, giving politicians the confidence to commit.

 

TT
But still find time to make boats and enjoy the pleasures of boating with the family:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/camping-kid-build-raft-race-28311.html

Looks to me like you are having plenty of fun while sticking to your principles - great job.

The picture at the bottom of the thread you started is consistent with what I also see as a growing part of recreational boating for our times and the future. I cannot see much influence of naval architects or marine engineers working with product development to suit this market - essentially beneath them. They are not trained in trivial pursuits such as this.

Rick W

 

Rick - Thankyou. It is easy to forget the importance of people in this. Something I have learned in the strawbale work I've been involved in is that the involvement of people in the event and activity of the build, forging friendship and community through the raising of a building in an accessible technology, is possibly even more important than substantial environmental benefit of the strawbale building itself.

I've been enjoying timelapse of traditional timber boat builds on youtube, pilot cutters and such, and although they are commercial builds, intensive, expensive, the money is going into human labour, and there is a great sense of activity and community in these boat builds too.

 

Chris - I beg to differ... there are at least four strongly held views being expressed here.
There's the left wing looney greeny argument that suggests that anyone who takes pleasure from burning fossil fuels is an arsenist.
There's the bugger the world - and all of you lot - I'll damned well do what I like and nothing will make me think any different type
Then we have the 'you can't influence the customer, they are always right' brigade.
And lastly there's the 'we know better than you what you should go boating in because we are designers' mob.

Personally, I think all of the above are wrong. And not just a little bit, but way off the mark. This is an evolving industry. Always has been. Always will be. Chris quite rightly points out that those who refuse to adapt to their market get left by the wayside. That, of course, is true of any industry.
History tells us that there will be innovations that reshape they way we do things. Look at Ray Hunt's deep-vee as a good example. Just as importantly we must recognise that most of these innovations are brought about by a market need. In the case of the deep-vee, it was the desire to race boats in rough water.
Right now, our industry is at a very interesting place. It is not a cross-roads - it is a continuation of the evolution that has brought us to where we are today. Few would deny that there is an increased awareness of the environment. Whether its well-founded and scientifically based is another matter altogether, and really in the context of the yacht design industry, it doesn't really matter. We will be doing things differently in the future because our market will demand it. It will be legislated upon us because our 'leaders' see pollitical gain to be had from following the pack (irony intended). It will also come from within our ranks because, by nature, we are an inventive lot who can't resist the temptation to improve the breed and to simply try new stuff.
There's nothing remarkable or new about it - it is, as I said, what we've always done... and will continue to do.