Dare to Say No

[Tad]

The premise of this thread is......

"As an industry, we boat builders and designers of pleasure craft are accountable for the current trends: expensive, wasteful, impractical boats and yachts. How, then, do we lead the market back to affordable, aesthetically pleasing, practical craft?"

Several posts above seem to be concerned with styling? Swoopy windows and horizontal windshields are expensive, wasteful, and impractical; and to my eye are neither affordable, aesthetically pleasing, or practical. But are they "cool"?

I guess I'll forgo "cool" design.......

The recent Design Challenges by WoodenBoat/ProBoat are good forums for this type of discussion.....here's my submission to the first one...



SS185 (simple skiff)
Design by Tad Roberts & Craig Bjarnason
WoodenBoat Design Challenge Entry

Comments by Tad Roberts

LOA = 18’6”
LWL = 17’7”
Beam max =5’6”
Beam wl = 4’7”
Draft = 9” at DWL
Displacement at DWL = 1940 lbs
Hull Weight = 412 lbs
Trailer weight = 730 lbs (w/ 25 HP outboard)
Power = 15-25 HP outboard
Fuel = (2) 6 usg portable tanks

The SS185 is intended to be straightforward to put together from NC cut plywood parts. A grid of transverse bulkheads slotted onto two longitudinal seat fronts form the basic framework to which the skin is applied. Once it’s tabbed and filleted together this closely spaced structure becomes quite stiff. All internal void areas are filled with floation foam, approximately 16 cubic ft.

The hull form was chosen to maximize waterline length, while reducing beam and creating a fine entry. Safety in a sea is addressed with higher than average topsides, and an interior which cannot (I hope) hold enough water long enough to cause catastrophe. Her interior includes some features such as numerous storage lockers and adjustable sliding seats, but overall she is meant to be simple and austere in the modern style.

The longer and narrower form reduces trim changes while transitioning from displacement to planning speeds. My hope is that this hull will run cleanly through the transition and may even run nicely somewhere within it. My Savitsky planning prediction declares maximum trim of 3.7 degrees at 13-14 knots. That’s acceptable as generally Stavitsky over predicts trim with long narrow forms. But the key to that trim is longitudinal center of gravity (LCG). In a boat this size the largest single moveable weights are the crew, thus where they end up is key to performance. I’ve tried to push the crew forward by ending the footwell 4’ forward of the transom. The sliding bench seats, used properly (with locks), should also help in this regard.

I see this boat as totally capable of long coastal voyages, such as to Alaska or Labrador. With a tent/dodger over the foredeck, which is long enough for sleeping on, and the seats slid out of the way of the footwell, she could be fairly roomy. If a big sea comes aboard offshore, the deep part of the footwell will hold 770 pounds of salt water (in level trim). This will sink the boat approximately 2” (ppi = 330 pounds) and most of it will quickly run off over the aft deck and out the open transom.

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by boat fan

I actually like the Ellis ......

What a sweet boat , great proportions , and very sexy .

[missinginaction]

Frank Smith,

Nice boat.....larger than I need and faster as well, but that's the idea.

I always thought a trawler should be a displacement craft, clearly this is a planing boat. A displacement craft would need much less power.

Nice execution, but for me smaller. Perhaps that's not practical anymore from a production point of view?

MIA

[frank smith]

Tad , interesting that the boat that won was just a rehash of old stuff that was around during the sixties, nothing really new . Now compair that to a 22'
foot deep vee displacing 2500 lb with a 200 hp outboard doing say 26mph in a 2' sea . One will ride like a Cadillac and the other will have you sorry you left. Surly you dont think you would want to take a long trip and go camping in a little boat with a 20hp motor . I could see going a couple of mile in one , but I'd keep an eye on sea conditions .

[boat fan]

I like that skiff Tad.
A great example of ' simple can be good '.

[boat fan]

Originally Posted by missinginaction

Nice boat.....larger than I need and faster as well, but that's the idea.

I always thought a trawler should be a displacement craft, clearly this is a planing boat. A displacement craft would need much less power.

That's the idea, but for me smaller. Perhaps that's not practical anymore from a production point of view?

MIA

Yes ...displacement version would be nice.Smaller also.
Can`t see why it would be impractical for production , missinginaction .....
They do one at 24 ft.......

[frank smith]

Originally Posted by missinginaction

Nice boat.....larger than I need and faster as well, but that's the idea.

I always thought a trawler should be a displacement craft, clearly this is a planing boat. A displacement craft would need much less power.

That's the idea, but for me smaller. Perhaps that's not practical anymore from a production point of view?

MIA

I think it is possible, and practical . The hull design and the motors are there ,
It is just a matter of putting the package together . Dont wait to long though because there are alot of hungry people out thinking the same thing we are .
Pick your niche , learn it well and go for it .

[boat fan]

Originally Posted by frank smith

I think it is possible, and practical . The hull design and the motors are there ,
It is just a matter of putting the package together . Dont wait to long though because there are alot of hungry people out thinking the same thing we are .
Pick your niche , learn it well and go for it .

Yes , I agree totally.

[jdworld]

RE: post #151......

that girl in the front appears to be looking enviously at a passing Hinckley Picnic Boat

haha - just kidding, couldn't resist.

[Willallison]

This thread is really motoring along. I can see I have no more time for sleep!

In France, I am seeing Renault and Citroen producing early examples of, soon to be manufactured, vehicles that are very much pulling away from big, internal combustion engines and excessive luxury appointments in favor of electric drive systems and very compact passenger capacities.

Chris, I agree with you that there are plenty of examples - of which the Hobie is an excellent one - of product leading the market. Your small car one, however, is not... car manufacturers are racing to build small electric cars because that's what their customers want.

fcfc and Tad both made some excellent points that reiterate the comments I made some time back - that for most people, short, fat, thirsty boats make more sense than long, skinny, efficient ones - at least in their own minds.

The simple reality is that if you want to lead consumers in a different direction, you have to offer them something that is new, not something that is less, perceived or real.

[boat fan]

Originally Posted by jdworld

RE: post #151......

that girl in the front appears to be looking enviously at a passing Hinckley Picnic Boat

haha - just kidding, couldn't resist.

I was secretly thinking that too

[boat fan]

The simple reality is that if you want to lead consumers in a different direction, you have to offer them something that is new, not something that is less, perceived or real.

This is " new ".......smaller fuel bills ......

[Ad Hoc]

Originally Posted by Tad

As mentioned above none of these designs employ rocket science, they are are all based on well known principals of naval architecture. It is not yacht designers who decide what a builder will market next, it is the company executives. The CEO asks the marketing people, who say two things.....1) build it just like XXX Yachts product but make it green and add another bathroom or some crazy windows. Or 2) Lets have a focus group of owner's and find out what they want. In other words the CEO will be told by the sales people to build more of the same boat....over and over.

It's very difficult to break out of this box......

As i also noted in post #8

There is almost nothing new nothing radical being done, it is the perception, ie marketing. To give the customer what the customer wants.

Sorry to hear Tad that your venture didn't turn out more successful. We too ahve lost contracts trying to convince clients "this is the way to go".

But, lets be brutally honest, how can anything that is lets face it, a luxury item, not a necessity for life (as fcfc rightly noted) be considered to be worthy of conservatism?

If you, personally, are spending money, £,$ or €'s or any other denomination, you want value for your money. To ahve value for your money, you buy what you want for your money, or at least what the ad campaign is telling you it gives!

Take that long skinny boat posted by Rick. Can i take my wife and kids on it, nope, can i ahve a shower, nope, can i use the head, nope, can i sleep over night on it, nope, ...then what is the point of me wasting my money on something that does not give me, the customer, what i want?....which is fun. Boats are luxury items and as such viewed as "fun", not utilitarian furniture.

[Tad]

Originally Posted by Willallison

you have to offer them something that is new, not something that is less, perceived or real.

Andrea del Sarto

Who strive - you don't know how the others strive
To paint a little thing like that you smeared
Carelessly passing with your robes afloat,-
Yet do much less, so much less, Someone says,
(I know his name, no matter) - so much less!
Well, less is more, Lucrezia.

Robert Browning, 1855

[Willallison]

I knew someone would pipe up with that line... Less is more. And it's a sentiment with which I agree - to a point. Less is only more, if you get all that you want (or think you want). As AH noted with Ricks tri...you couldn't get much less... if all you want to do is potter about the lake for an hour or two on your own it may be a splendid solution.
But try to tell someone who thinks they want a 30 footer with 2 cabins, a microwave, aircon, 3 tv's and a top speed of 30 knots that they would really be geting "more' by doing away with all those mod cons and sacrificing 1/2 their speed.....
Your own examples are proof that, in general, it doesn't work. More's the pitty from a designers perspective...