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  #1  
Old 04-28-2006, 10:13 AM
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Vega Vega is offline
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cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

I am going to introduce this discussion with the help of some other threads' posts on the subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willallison
Fred -

It's a mistake to think that buying a sailboat will save you money. Many times I've seen the results of studies that show that a full displacement power boat is indeed less costly to buy and own. This basically comes down to the cost of the rigging and the structure required to support it. Few would consider building a sailboat without and engine, so there is little or no saving there. Further, (most) sailors spend more time under power than they would care to admit. And of course the cost of maintenance for a sailboat is often higher - not simply as a result of having to replace sails etc, but often because (many) sailboat owners tend to neglect the ongoing maintenance of their powerplants.
Obviously not always the case, but certainly worth bearing in mind....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega
It all depends on how many miles you travel each year.

Go and circumnavigate and take a look at the fuel costs, on the other hand I know a guy that crossed the Atlantic with less than 30 gallons, or a guy that has made it from the US to Australia with 10 gallons (mostly for the batteries) and fast too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willallison
Vega - without wanting to hijack this thread, or turn it into a sail vs power debate - I'm not suggesting that it's always less expensive to own a powerboat, just that it's certainly not always the opposite..... buying, owning and operating a boat (as I know you are well aware) is about a lot more than the cost of fuel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega
Willallison, I agree with that.
I am not a "fundamentalist" about sailing boats (or anything), but this is a very interesting discussion and I would like to continue and get deeper in this.
Perhaps if there are more members interested in this, we can open a new thread about it?
Not to defend sail boats, but to really see the pros and cons of each kind of boat, regarding cruising costs, price of the boat and maintenance.


Here it is, have a nice discussion
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  #2  
Old 04-29-2006, 01:04 AM
Gregg Gregg is offline
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Hmm....Which would I rather choose. Stuck out in the middle of the pond with the engine dead in the water....Hard choice, really hard choice.
Besides, how can ya play Tristan Jones if ya ain't got no sails?
"When in danger or in doubt, hoist your sails and bugger on out"<--I think he said that.
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  #3  
Old 04-29-2006, 01:24 AM
Wellydeckhand Wellydeckhand is offline
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Ok, I might be young and silly in my view but........ isnt a sailboat cheaper because it use almost no fuel unless for lighting and electronic purposes? The sail can choose simple type with low mantainance.

If there are a war situation or virus spread out where everybody exodus with their ships and boat, I would have to choose sail......... hard to get fuel.

I would think I am careless, so use sail in the open water and use the engine to come near land, for better and safer drive in the marina.

P.S. too much fuel storage take up space and lend to slow the vessel anyway, water is more important than fuel for scacity in a passage. I like muscle motoryacht...... dont get me wrong, depend on the situation.
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  #4  
Old 04-29-2006, 04:37 AM
fcfc fcfc is offline
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Overall costs of a boat depends on too many local and personnal parameters to make something generic. that why there are so many different boats.

Some marinas in france have a waiting list of at least 10 years. That simply means buy a used boat sold with its place in the nearby marina or a trailerable one. Other options are simply not realistic.
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Old 04-29-2006, 07:55 AM
fcfc fcfc is offline
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Another point:
take *ANY* boat.
Make it 10% shorter, 5% narrower, lighter and cruise 10% slower.
Most chances that you will end up with a boat less expensive to buy and to maintain, whatever the initial boat.

Sailboats from 22 ft can be seaworthy: witness the mini transat. Some even crossed atlantic rowing.

Now you are left with one point, since your body cannot be scaled down : how much comfort (or lack of) can you accept ?
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  #6  
Old 04-29-2006, 09:16 AM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Maintenace time and costs

Regardless of the type boat, maintenance time and costs are going to be close if you want more than a modicum of security off shore. Similarly, both sail and motor vessels require certain onboard spares. I believe that the discussion is narrowing down to either saill assisted (when the wind is blowing your way) or motor assisted (when the wind isn't blowing your wsy, or at all.) Motors well taken care of generally don't fail, and sail well service offer long life. Fuel tabklage is a matter to be integrated with hill design and distance.
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  #7  
Old 04-29-2006, 11:20 AM
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Vega Vega is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcfc
Overall costs of a boat depends on too many local and personnal parameters to make something generic. that why there are so many different boats.
.
Of course, and I love diversity. What I am proposing is to make a little analysis of these parameters in what regards cruising in a sail boat and in a motor boat: The parameters are: price of the boat, cruising costs, maintenance and resale value.

To put some order in this discussion I propose that we begin with the choice and price of a new boat. Building costs can hugely differ as well as prices of used boats, so letís start with the price of a new boat. I believe that if there is a significant demand for a certain kind of a boat, then there will be an offer of that product on the market. If you donít find a guy or a manufacturer in the whole world, that makes the kind of boat you want, then that kind is not suited to these discussion, because we are talking about cruising, that is what lots of boat ownerís do, and the market obviously produces the boats they want (thatís how the market works, if you are wrong about what people want, you will be out of business quickly.

The boat:
For cruising you need interior space, safety, economy on fuel costs and some autonomy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg
Hmm.... Stuck out in the middle of the pond with the engine dead in the water.....
Of course, a sailboat has two engines, a motor engine and a sail engine. That contributes a lot for safety, but even the most modest 6m sport fishing boats that go to the sea carry normally also two engines (the main and an auxiliary outboard, just in case). So, I think that it is also out of question (at least for me) to have a cruising boat without two engines (and that is also the main market offer for cruising motorboats).

The two main world cruising grounds are the Caribbean and the Mediterranean. Thatís where most cruisers want to cruise, so the biggest offer relates to boats that are intended to cruise on these waters. That means oceangoing boats, but not necessarily passage makers.

For the sailing boat, it looks that what sailors are buying now (and logically what the market is aiming at) are sailing boats in the 40ft area.

Letís chose the typical sail cruising boat, from the biggest manufacturer and the boat that he produces aiming at cruising in this size, the Oceanis 393:

The boat can have 4 or 3 cabins, two heads, it is a relatively good sailing boat with a 55hp motor and it comes standard with a 476 liter water tank and a diesel tank of 138 liters with an option for more 150l.

I donít know a lot about motorboats, so I will ask the collaboration of the Forum motorcruisers to chose, from the world market, a boat with similar characteristics to this sailing boat, in what regards interior space, water capacity and number of engines (2), a motorboat fit for cruising in comfort, in an economical sort of way, regarding fuel consumption, maintenance and initial price.

http://www.beneteau.com/$gp/ficheModele.do?code=14383&extension=001
Attached Thumbnails
cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)-oc393_1b.jpg  cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)-oc-int.jpg  cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)-occ.jpg  

cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)-oce393.jpg  
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  #8  
Old 04-29-2006, 11:33 AM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Good thoughts

Good input Vega. In the possible development of a long range motor only new design, one thing that I would like to reccommend is the placement of berths midship. I've been at sea in both Hurricane Bertha and Hurricane Lenny and the crew found that they could get adequate rest in the rather small quarter berths. In the V-berths they were tossed against the overhead and out of their berths, a rather dangerous underway situation. I realize that V-berths are a design advantage in use of the bow space, but I also believe that better and safer uses could be made of it that would permit better crew rest and accommodations in other areas. Most boats, both power and sail take up a lot of cabin room with lockers. Possibly lockers with drawer and shelves as well as hanging locker could go forward into the space currently occupied by the V-berth.
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  #9  
Old 04-29-2006, 11:57 AM
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Vega Vega is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenseas2
Regardless of the type boat, maintenance time and costs are going to be close if you want more than a modicum of security off shore.
Thatís what I want to find out. Thatís a little early to take conclusions.

[quote=Greenseas2Motors well taken care of generally don't fail, and sail well service offer long life.[/QUOTE]

The problem is the ďgenerallyĒ. In the summer it is not expected to have really bad weather (specially when the weather report doesnít make reference to anything special), but last year I was caught (at night) by some weird meteorological phenomena, a Tornado, a Micro Burst or something like that, that instantaneously has ripped off my main sail (reefed on the third point).
Safety should be maximized and the ďnormallyĒ is just not good enough.

A thousand weird things can happen to an engine, not normally, but they can. You can have the stuff to repair, or not.

Of course you can propose a cruising boat with only an engine, but it will lose a lot of points in safety towards a boat with two engines (sail and motor or motor and motor).
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Old 04-29-2006, 12:42 PM
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Vega Vega is offline
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A Motorboat like this one could be an option even if not as seaworthy as the oceanis.
http://www.parker-marine.com/desccom44.html

Does anybody know any boat manufacturer that has in his range a boat like this?
Attached Thumbnails
cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)-c441.jpg  cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)-c442.jpg  
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  #11  
Old 04-29-2006, 02:18 PM
Greenseas2 Greenseas2 is offline
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Somewhat the same

Vega, Phil Bolger's Wyoming design comes fairly close. It's a flat bottom boat though and requires low power to move along at a good clip. He has a series of designs that are similar and they are spacious. At he very least, they make ideal economical inland cruisers and may be a place to start. They could be modified with a shallow V hull fore better seaworthiness. Also look at the 45 foot Mark V boat on the net.
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  #12  
Old 04-29-2006, 02:37 PM
Skippy Skippy is offline
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I find it very hard to believe that sailing costs, such as maintaining a set of sails up to typical cruising standards, would cost as much as fuel and other expenses for motoring. I would very much like to see some realistic numbers for the two. To make a fair comparison, overal size, interior accomodations, and other amenities should be equal between the two cases. The motorboat will be under power at all times when underway, and in essentially all cases will have a larger and therefore less fuel-efficient motor. The sailboat will motor some of the time with a smaller engine. I would assume some sort of "average" or "typical" weather conditions and habits on the part of the sailor as to what percentage of miles are crossed under power.

In these days of rising fuel prices, another way to make the comparison might be to calculate a rough "break-even" price, where motoring is cheaper at lower fuel prices and sailing is cheaper when fuel costs more. My guess is that the break-even price would be much lower than what we have these days.
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  #13  
Old 04-29-2006, 03:05 PM
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Vega Vega is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenseas2
Vega, Phil Bolger's Wyoming design comes fairly close. It's a flat bottom boat though and requires low power to move along at a good clip. ...may be a place to start. .
No, not even close.
That is a design. For the reasons I have stated in a previous post we need a PRODUCTION MOTORBOAT, preferably a mass production boat, to be cheaper.
The Oceanis 393 is a mass production boat and for a fair comparison (in prices) we need also a mass produced motor boat.

I am still waiting for suggestions.
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  #14  
Old 04-29-2006, 03:36 PM
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Vega Vega is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy
I would very much like to see some realistic numbers for the two. To make a fair comparison, overal size, interior accomodations, and other amenities should be equal between the two cases. .
Me to. It is why I have opened this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy
I find it very hard to believe that sailing costs, such as maintaining a set of sails up to typical cruising standards, would cost as much as fuel and other expenses for motoring.
Remember that Willallison has said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willallison
Fred -

It's a mistake to think that buying a sailboat will save you money. Many times I've seen the results of studies that show that a full displacement power boat is indeed less costly to buy and own.
I am hoping that Willallison will come to this discussion and bring some light over the issue.
I have to say that I have already heard about those studies (from a motorboater, of course) but I have never seen them.
I am curious too, and in need of help from Willialison and the other motorboaters, to find the production motorboat that in their opinion fits the bill and is suitable to have that comparison with the Oceanis (price, cruising costs, maintenance and resale value).
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  #15  
Old 04-29-2006, 05:22 PM
fcfc fcfc is offline
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For vega

I think the approach is flawed.
You take one of the best selling sailboat, and ask what powerboat could compete against in fields where the sailboat is good.

I could ask the reverse:
take a good powerboat (say for instance antares 980, of the same builder or nimbus 320 ( http://www.swemarine.com/320coupe.html ,widely rented boat as the oceanis 393), and now ask what sailboat could compete in term of cruise speed (> 16 kts, top > 25 kts), with the same ease of handling (no more than a throttle lever to push), same kind of independance of weather (no wind or upwind not a problem), with the same shoal draft, and of course at a similar price and liveability.
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