cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[Ari]

"The relatively small size of our engines, and the improved drive and hull efficiencies, make for a fuel miserly vessel that attempts to break the vicious circle of needing more fuel to power the higher h.p. engines needed to carry more fuel. This speed/fuel dilemma is discussed in an article in MARLIN, Feb-Mar '93. A more recent issue of MARLIN, Jan '95, makes a "head to head comparison" between a traditional 50' sportfisher, "Kelsey Lee" and a 50' catamaran vessel,"Tara Vana" over an identical, non-stop, 900 mile course from Costa Rica to Mexico; 1800 gals of fuel verses 320 gals for the cat (under power for the entire trip). And Tara Vana was able to fish the entire trip, unimpeded by the extra fuel containers which filled up the cockpit of Kelsey Lee. On another occasion, a voyage of 3700 miles was accomplished with the consumption of only 195 gals of fuel! [ The savings in fuel cost alone could defray a substantial portion of the crew salaries of this vessel in charter]"

This comparison is for a multi hull motor sailor againts mono hull motor yacht.I quote this comparison for cost per journey purpose of discussion. I believe cost per journey can give us an idea about the total cost differences between the two type of boat.Hopefully somebody who knows about the cost of mast, sail and riggings maintenance for about the same size boats can elaborate on this and we can have better datas to discuss.Any of you guys who knows about the cost of maintenance for a suitable engine for the same size motor yacht?

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Ari

Here what I meant is the cost of sail, mast, rigging and their maintenance.
.....I still use that example because I cannot find any 30 or 40 footer power boat that had performed more or less same type of ocean crossing passage(about 3000 nautical miles).

Yes you can. See post 35 of this thread and have a look at the link.

There are also some motor catamarans.

I have already done some calculations and the initial price of the boat is a huge factor. You can not find in the market any suitable motorboat to compare with the Oceanis, simlpy brcause they all cost 2x or 3x more.

So, in the budget category, the budget cruising sailboat has no rival.
Between two boats of the same price, it is a closer match, regarding costs, I am still looking at it.

[fcfc]

Originally Posted by Vega

Yes you can. See post 35 of this thread and have a look at the link.

There are also some motor catamarans.

I have already done some calculations and the initial price of the boat is a huge factor. You can not find in the market any suitable motorboat to compare with the Oceanis, simlpy brcause they all cost 2x or 3x more.

So, in the budget category, the budget cruising sailboat has no rival.

The adria 1000/1002 with a single cummins 80 hp more expensive than a Oceanis ?
And I doubt JM Tanton TEMETA or JP Brouns JMF39 twice the price of an Oceanis.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by fcfc

The adria 1000/1002 with a single cummins 80 hp more expensive than a Oceanis ?
And I doubt JM Tanton TEMETA or JP Brouns JMF39 twice the price of an Oceanis.

We are talking about production manufactured boats.

Do you really think that the Adria 1002 is a "ocean crossing passage" maker, with a range of "about 3000 nautical miles"? I hope not

Ari said that he didn't know of a 30/40ft passage maker motorboat with a 3000 m range. That's what I was talking about.

[fcfc]

Originally Posted by Vega

We are talking about production manufactured boats.

Do you really think that the Adria 1002 is a "ocean crossing passage" maker, with a range of "about 3000 nautical miles"? I hope not

Ari said that he didn't know of a 30/40ft passage maker motorboat with a 3000 m range. That's what I was talking about.

How many Oceanis actually did a 3000 nm passage, and what was the cost of custom modifications made to them for such passage ?

You do not go that far with one 500 ltrs water tank.
Same for electricity. I am not sure the standard fuel tank would allow enough engine charging time to use the fridge continuously for a 3000 nm passage, with the standard electricity / battery / charging system.

[fcfc]

BTW, 3000 nm at 6 kts average means 20 days.

What are the capacities of the fridge and sub freezer (if any) of the Oceanis to contain food for a crew of 4 for 20 days ?

Or do you intend to eat dry or canned food that long ?

[Vega]

Originally Posted by fcfc

How many Oceanis actually did a 3000 nm passage,?

A lot!

Not that I would consider it the most adequate boat, but this is the kind of boat that is more used to do Atlantic Crossings. Some time ago Yachting world Magazine published some statistics about the boats more used in the Atlantic Rally for cruisers (ARC). By far, the most used was this type of boat (between 37 and 50ft).

Originally Posted by fcfc

What are the capacities of the fridge and sub freezer (if any) of the Oceanis to contain food for a crew of 4 for 20 days ?

Or do you intend to eat dry or canned food that long ?

You do not go that far with one 500 ltrs water tank.
Same for electricity. I am not sure the standard fuel tank would allow enough engine charging time to use the fridge continuously for a 3000 nm passage, with the standard electricity / battery / charging system.

For a passage like that, this boat would not be comfortable for four, nor would it be the Nordhavn 40, but it is not a problem.

You have three cabins, but you only need two, one is for luggage and supplies.
You can add to the water supply 12 packs of 12 bottles of 1,5L each (mineral water), so you have a total of 716L of water.
You need 5L/day for each person. That will do for 35 days and if you do the passage in that time the average speed will be of only 3,6 knots.
If absolutely necessary it will be possible to go with only 3,5L for person, so I think that you have plenty of safety margins.

You know, there were a lot of passages made before they had invented the freezer, or the fridge.
Anyway on passage nowadays what you use is mostly dried food that you prepare with a mix of sea water and water from the boat. A lot of spaghetti, rice, soup, etc.

To have the fridge running (for the beer, of course), along with the autopilot and the rest of electronics with an engine with two alternators (option available) you need to have it running about 2 hours a day. Running the engine at 1500rpn for 2 hours will burn around 4 L of Diesel. So the 138 L are good for about 35 days. With three 25L jerry cans you have enough for any emergency.

In one of my boat’s cabin I have space for that water and the jerry cans, so in a bigger boat that would not be a problem.

[FAST FRED]

One advantage of the full displacement boat is it is not handycapped by weight as the multihulls are. So voyaging is possible.

As it is no problem to carry water for a voyage , although the fly weight multihull will need a genset to run a water maker , lots of spairs , for everything , and a box of trace minerals to make the water suitable for humans to LIVE with , as the RO machine takes the minerals out.

FAST FRED

[Milan]

"… owner and about what the market has to offer…Typical boat owner does not make his own boat, he buys a used one or goes to a boat show and buys a brand new one…"

Indeed, I was talking about unrestricted passage making type of the boat. You can't find them at the boat shows and custom building is the only way to get one. (Aside from buying second hand lifeboat). I think that such custom built boat doesn't have to be expensive if kept simple and focused on essentials - simple, chined hull form, (fast and economical to build in metal), functional, cheap, working boat type of interior and not to many toys.

But, back to this thread, passageing is not what interests typical boat buyer. If one wants to buy a production boat for economical cruising in semi protected waters, I think the easiest solution would be to buy one of the deck-saloon sailing boats without rig and fin. Money saved on the rig, sails and winches could easily finance new shallower rudder, bigger fuel tanks and quite a lot of fuel for the nice, long cruising.

"…About steel boats…Holland is a good place to find them…"

Yes, a very good place indeed.
http://www.botenbank.nl/yachtselect/boten/31050803/view
http://www.nieuweboten.nl/motorkruis...tter_1975.html

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Milan

"…

But, back to this thread, passgeing is not what interests typical boat buyer. If one wants to buy a production boat for economical cruising in semi protected waters, I think the easiest solution would be to buy one of the deck-saloon sailing boats without rig and fin. Money saved on the rig, sails and winches could easily finance new shallower rudder, bigger fuel tanks and quite a lot of fuel for the nice, long cruising.

I will begin with that. Let's see about the costs

[Vega]

The sturier 40, besides being a nice boat, is an interesting boat to this comparison.

That model has a motorsailor version, so it makes things easy.
Let’s begin this comparison with a sturdy heavy motorsailor (the Sturier 40 with sails) against the same boat without sails.

This will show how a heavy traditional kind of motorsail compares, regarding economy, with the same boat without a rig.

Technical characteristics:

MOTORBOAT

Hull Length – 12 M Displ. – 16 T Engine – 100kw Cruising speed 7,5k Price 378 000 euros (cons 20% VAT)

MOTORSAILOR

The same plus a Ketch rig with 65m2 Price 414 000 euros

For this comparison I will consider as price of Diesel 1L=1Euro (here it costs 1,14/L)

I will consider that the sails will last 10 years and will need as maintenance (in those 10 years) 20% of the total cost of the sails. For a set of sails with 65 m2 - 7000 Euros. For maintenance of the rig for 10 years – 1500 euros and the complete substitution of the rig after 20 years.

I will consider that the engine when reaching 2000 hours will have a big revision (engine pulled apart) with some replacements and that will cost 2500 euros. At 4000 hours it will be the same, but with more pieces needing replacement -cost 3250 euros and at 6000 hours the engine will be replaced.

I will consider the initial cost of the boats, the resale value after 10 years and the operating costs for 500m/year, 1500m/year, 3000m/year and 9000m/year, to calculate the total cost of owning and operating each boat.

I will post the results soon.

http://www.sturier.com/

[Willallison]

That looks like being an interesting comparison Vega.
For the motorsailer, what proportion of the distance travelled will you have as being under power and under sail?

[fcfc]

Originally Posted by Vega

The sturier 40, besides being a nice boat, is an interesting boat to this comparison.

..............
MOTORBOAT

Hull Length – 12 M Displ. – 16 T Engine – 100kw Cruising speed 7,5k Price 378 000 euros (cons 20% VAT)

MOTORSAILOR

The same plus a Ketch rig with 65m2 Price 414 000 euros

For this comparison I will consider as price of Diesel 1L=1Euro (here it costs 1,14/L)

I will consider that the sails will last 10 years and will need as maintenance (in those 10 years) 20% of the total cost of the sails. For a set of sails with 65 m2 - 7000 Euros. For maintenance of the rig for 10 years – 1500 euros and the complete substitution of the rig after 20 years.

I will consider that the engine when reaching 2000 hours will have a big revision (engine pulled apart) with some replacements and that will cost 2500 euros. At 4000 hours it will be the same, but with more pieces needing replacement -cost 3250 euros and at 6000 hours the engine will be replaced.

I will post the results soon.

http://www.sturier.com/

Beware of engine type.

The cat 3056 in the sturier is a commercial engine.
http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=52420&x=7
Oil change is scheduled at 400 hours (caterpillar doc). You do not remplace such an engine at 6000 hours. the service life should be around 20 000 hours.

For 100kw, if we stay volvo, you have the choice between
http://www.volvo.com/NR/rdonlyres/38...D3_inboard.pdf
and
http://www.volvo.com/NR/rdonlyres/D8...D2/0/D5A_T.pdf

One is 100 kW at 4000 rpm, weigthing 260 kg. The other is 100 kW at 2300 rpm, weighting 560 kg.

I think the maintenace costs you cite refer to the first kind of engine. The second one should be in the vicinity of oil changes at 500 hours, so 2000 hours is 4 oil change. No need to open the engine with so "low" hours, and no need to replace the full engine at 12 oil changes.

Yanmar is even worse. For 120 hp, you have 90kW at 3800 rpm, weigth 230 kg
http://www.yanmarmarine.com/products...E_TechData.pdf
and 95 kW at 2600 rpm for 700 kg.
http://www.yanmar.co.jp/yasc/product...72579_541.html

[FAST FRED]

"If one wants to buy a production boat for economical cruising in semi protected waters, I think the easiest solution would be to buy one of the deck-saloon sailing boats without rig and fin.

I have a neighbor who purchases a 45 ketch , AFTER the HURRICANE , missing the mainmast .

With a new Deere engine and motoring prop ,and 2/3 the ballast cut off it makes a fine coastal motorboat.

The mizzen remains to carry antennas and a sun awning.

Nice & inexpensive for the boats ability.Good motion & shalow draft.

FAST FRED

[Vega]

Originally Posted by fcfc

Beware of engine type.

The cat 3056 in the sturier is a commercial engine.
http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=52420&x=7
Oil change is scheduled at 400 hours (caterpillar doc). You do not remplace such an engine at 6000 hours. the service life should be around 20 000 hours.


One is 100 kW at 4000 rpm, weigthing 260 kg. The other is 100 kW at 2300 rpm, weighting 560 kg.

I think the maintenace costs you cite refer to the first kind of engine. The second one should be in the vicinity of oil changes at 500 hours, so 2000 hours is 4 oil change. No need to open the engine with so "low" hours, and no need to replace the full engine at 12 oil changes.

Thanks. Please see if you can have the price of the cat 3056 and post the Caterpillar link regarding maintenance.

I agree, that there is a diference in the type of engines and that the numbers I am using are the ones for the wrong type (Volvo-Penta/yanmar).

But 20 000 hours seems to me a lot. In used boats adds, regarding boats with those engines I have never seen one of a boat with an engine with more than 10 000 hours.