cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Willallison

Vega - sorry, but I respectfully disagree. Trust me - I know what I was referring to when I said that it's not always cheaper to own and operate a sailboat. If I had meant that it's cheaper to have a budget sailboat than a budget powerboat, then I would have said so. Regardless of the context of Fred's post, that's NOT what I meant.

I also find it difficult to see how you can extrapolate from Dashew's comparison to say the boat would be 12% more expensive to operate in Europe, given that you (or I) don't know all the parameters (and the weight given to them) that he used to arrive at his numbers. Now you may well be correct - it may indeed cost more to operate the powerboat in Europe, but it still doesn't alter the fact that under the circumstances in which he will operate the boat it will be less expensive than their equivalent sailboat.

...

It is all right, not a problem Willallison, but Fred was talking about “Low Budget cruising” and I am talking about that too.

That’s what this thread is about.

About the 12%, it is not difficult. He gave you two different prices of fuel, maintained all the parameters and has said how much they modify the % of cost between sail boat and motorboat. Extrapolating from that you can find what will happen with any fuel price regarding % of costs between both boats , maintaining all other parameters ( I don’t need to know what they are) .

What I was saying is that he has obviously calculated the operating costs for both boats for a long period of time (he talks about changing the gearbox) but disregarded the sharp rise on fuel price.
I mean, 15 years from now, the proportion between the rise of prices (do to the inflation) in the cost of the rig or the sails, on one side, and the engines, on the other side, would be the same.
But regarding the fuel, it is going to rise a lot more than the inflation, say 50% if you are lucky. He obviously didn’t consider this in his calculations.
If he had done that, the outcome would have been very much the opposite.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

First, I don't like the Oceanis range of boats. I find them the kind of impersonal, egg-marina-style, internal volume oriented (beamy and high freeboard), good weather island-hoppers, mass production boats. Not really serious cruisers, in my humble opinion. Neither I like Bavarias.

Well, I also don’t like them, but you are wrong, these are the typical low budget cruiser boats, and it is not me who is stating that, it is the market.


When I talk about cruising, it is again not about the very few people that make passages, but the 97% that cruise along the coast or do the Island-hops as you call it. Fact is that cruising is not about being a month in the middle of nowhere (that’s passage-making) but about enjoying life, on the move, along some beautiful shores, somewhere.

And for that, and considering low price, you can not find a better boat than the Oceanis, Bavarias and the lot. That’s the reason they sell thousands of them.

And, as we are talking here about Low budget Cruising sail boats, that’s the ones that matter for this discussion.

But regarding those that you call Serious cruisers, go and have a look at which is the boat that has more entries in the Atlantic Rally Crossing....surprise, surprise.

Originally Posted by Guillermo

I think it is more fair to fix living area and then find the equivalent length for a single decked efficient motor boat, if that's what you pretend.

Yes, it is what I have been saying.

Originally Posted by Guillermo

For short good weather trips, yes, commuter style motor boats can be a very nice alternative to sailing boats, especially when you're getting old. But you'll pay more at marinas because of the increased lenght...An strong reason to go trawlers....

For all around cruising, I stubborngly believe well conceived sail-efficient motorsailers are the answer to economic and safe all around cruising.

About Motorsailors, they are out of this thread. This one is about sailboats and motorboats.

Not that I have anything against, on the contrary, but, as Tad has put it “the comparison is only good in a narrow set of circumstances” and what we are comparing is cruising sailboats and motorboats of about 40ft, a little more, a little less, depending on interior space.

About trawlers we will see about it, but I have my doubts. For coastal cruising, commuter style boats can do a lot more speed, at the same Gallon/mile average, comparing with trawlers. They are a lot more heavy and probably more expensive.

I don’t think that Marina differences are very important in this case. In most marinas you pay also for beam and in some others for the area of the boat, so in the end it would not be a big deal, I guess.

I don’t get that connection between Commuter style boat and old guys. They make me think of beautiful ladies and style...I kind like it, I mean, both.

With motorboat cats Marina price differences can be a very substantial % in total operating costs, but Cats also have advantages. So if someone is interested we can have a look at them too.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

The problem here is CRUISING has not been defined.

To some a "Cruise" is a trip across the sea , or any small ocean.

To others is the "Cruising Season" is 100 hours of use per year.

Just as a day sailor has different goals , and Co$ts ,

So does CRUISING , have a variety of meanings.

Perhaps we can use CRUISING as the term for coastal craft that just do occasional trips ,
and VOYAGING for the boats that need longer ocean worthy legs?


FAST FRED

Yes, let’s define cruising, at least for this thread

I don’t see how crossing oceans can be called cruising. That’s passage making.
Cruising is going along some nice shore, stopping for a bath, to visit a nice village or a wilderness.
That’s why the nice coasts are called cruising grounds.

Sometimes you need to do a passage to reach some cruising grounds, sometimes you don’t.

Sometimes you have just to do some small offshore passage and that is all.

The term exists also regarding car travel (and I like that too). When you cruise you are not doing some big non stop voyage, you are enjoying yourself along the countryside, taking your time and stopping at the nice places. It is the same with a boat.

So, we are considering here not necessarily passage makers, but also coastal cruising boats with some offshore capacity.

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Vega

Well, I also don’t like them, but you are wrong, these are the typical low budget cruiser boats, and it is not me who is stating that, it is the market.

No, I'm afraid I'm not wrong. That's precisely why I don't like them. I've inspected some of those when accidents happen, and I find they are cheapily built and conceived just to be sold to people who don't understand much about boats. As the owner of a very successful Galician boatyard (selling thousands of units a year the world around) told me: "What sells are nice varnished interiors and glooming hull surfaces, not well engineered boats"

Originally Posted by Vega

When I talk about cruising, it is again not about the very few people that make passages, but the 97% that cruise along the coast or do the Island-hops as you call it. Fact is that cruising is not about being a month in the middle of nowhere (that’s passage-making) but about enjoying life, on the move, along some beautiful shores, somewhere.
And for that, and considering low price, you can not find a better boat than the Oceanis, Bavarias and the lot. That’s the reason they sell thousands of them....

And that's why I've mostly inspected these kind of boats when in accidents . I do not remember to have done this for a properly built one, except those having been collisioned by a third, or the like....

Typical eggy-sailboat owner (with some nice exceptions) is a guy with some freedom thoughts in mind, but really with little time to fulfill his dream of a globetrotting cruising (including ocean crossings), because of his very busy work. He's bred in local sailing dinghies and then club cruisers regattas, so he still has the good taste of not going for fast eggy-motorboats, thanks God, as is the option for people without a sailing background (most of them).

So, he marries and gets small children and realizes all he can really do is some weekend sailing with family and maybe some club regattas with friends (this last only when friends are still young and do not get their own families). And because he has certain money and social position, he cannot either buy an old junky, sturdy boat, because of the public image of himself at the marina. But, on the other hand, he cannot afford to go into the expensive side of the market and buy a same sized properly built boat. So he goes for those cheaper nice-looking eggy-cruisers bred in racers, with big interior spaces and high freeboards. And that's why there are lots of those.

And this guy, in many ocasions having really little time to take care of his boat, leaving this task to local workshops without enough knowledge or skilled personnel, try to fulfill his dream from time to time, going out for some vacation cruising, including some short passages when the weather is gentle, or even ocean crossings looking for warmer waters. But sea and weather follow their own laws and tend to provide some disagreeable surprises, even in coastal waters and tradewind ocean crossings. And then is when the lack of a proper boat brings some serious consequences. To be fair, much less of what could happen, because, mercifully, there exists a legion of angels taking care of boatowners and their crews....

Originally Posted by Vega

About Motorsailors, they are out of this thread...

Why? I don't understand your position. When you talk sailing boats you mean they should have no engine?

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Why? I don't understand your position. When you talk sailing boats you mean they should have no engine?

Guillermo, shame on you. After so many formulas and definitions it looks like you can not yet define what a motor-sailor is.

I have no pretension of doing that, but in this thread, considering production boats, a sail boat is a boat that has an engine that is not big enough to make it a motor-sailor.

Seriously, as an Architect I am fed up with some other architects’ idea that they are the ones that know what people should want as a house. I don’t care the least; I am only interested in what people want as a house. See, I assume that they are not stupid and they know what they want, even if for me, I would make it different.

That’s the market, and the market rules, and boat owners are not stupid because they don’t share your opinion.

As I have said to you once, it is not me or you who says what a motorsail is or a sailing boat, a cruising boat, a cruiser racer or a passage-maker.

It is the market and the specialized press.

I am not talking here about passage-makers. Those are not budget boats, and for those the press will name boats like the Rassy, Najad, Contest, Passport, Island Packet etc.

But for all the specialized press all around the world, the typical budget oceangoing cruiser (between 39 and 45ft) are the Oceanis, the Bavarias, the Hunters and the like.

And here, in this thread, we are talking just about that : The typical market production budget sailboat cruiser, meaning the kind of boat sailors with tight budgets are buying to do that, not about your opinion, or mine.

Independently of our opinions about them, they are the typical low budget cruisers and they will remain as so in this thread.



PS. If you want to open a new thread to discuss what a sailboat budget cruiser should be I will gladly participate. It will be interesting.

[Guillermo]

OK, Paulo. It's your thread...
Following your thoughts, I think it is more fair to compare eggy-sailing boats with eggy-motorboats, instead of well conceived and engineered motor ones.
So, I suggest you to consider popular motor cruisers from Bayliner, Chaparral, Cruisers Yachts, Formula Boats, and the like

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Willallison

My sister now operates the 1976 36ft CheoyLee that my parents used to have. She's a displacement cruiser with a pair 120hp Leihman diesels. She too is somewhat overpowered (the boat was originally designed to have a single Leihman), but is otherwise an excellent cruiser. She carries 3 1/2 tons of fuel and 2 1/2 tons of water. Running on one motor, the boat gets about 4 nmpg.

My brother-in-law is a dedicated sailor and has a 40ft Adams. She's not as well fitted out as the Cheoy Lee, nor does she have anything like the interior volume, in spite of being a reasonably beamy boat. I can't remember exactly what motor she has, but it's around 40hp. She's also a little younger, but by the time he's finished with a fairly extensive re-fit the two boats should be worth about the same amount of money - about 150K AUD.

Yet on average we put only about 100hrs on the motor(s) per year. That equates to approximately 200 gallons, or 900 litres of fuel. at about $1.50 per litre, thats $1800 per year.
The sailboat averages 7 nmpg at 7 knots and he puts on about 50 hrs each year. That equates to about $350 per year in fuel, so he's $1450 ahead on fuel costs.
Only the powerboat is kept in a marina, but if both were, the extra length would cost the sailboat about $200 extra each year.
…………
Now this is a very bare-bones comparison,.

Willallison, I have said that it was a lot easier to do that comparison with new production boats, taking into account what the market has to offer nowadays.

You have chosen otherwise and there is no reason why we should not have a look at it, but not like that, not in a” very bare-bones comparison”.
Like that, it means nothing and leads nowhere.

First, let’s introduce the boats:

I can only have internet photos, and could not find the interior layout of the Cheoylee 36.So if you can post real photos would be interesting, as it would be very interesting to hear what your brother-in-law thinks about your calculations.

The Cheoylee, is a fiberglass boat built in 1976 and it seems to me that it has a nice interior, caravan type, with really huge windows everywhere and lots of light, but I have only seen one cabin. Is that so?
About this boat you seem to imply that the 2x120hp engines are an exception, but for what I have seen in the used market, it is more the norm. Sure, I could find some versions with smaller engines on the used market, but because they have only one engine, they are offered at very low prices, compared with the ones that have your set-up.

The 40ft Adams are Passagemakers, fast and seaworthy boats, but, because they are not production boats, they can vary widely (and that’s why this discussion should be about production boats) :

“Adams 40 centre Cockpit, Aft Cockpit, Version 2:

Designed as centre cockpit, aft cockpit and the version 2 with the extended dog-house arrangements and various keels including full length, shoal draft with skeg hung rudder, centre-board, and fin.
This boat has been drawn for steel construction either round bilge or multi chine but can be built in aluminium, fiberglass foam/sandwich, plywood or timber.”http://www.adamsyachtdesign.com/page3.html

And of course the quality of the interior, to be fit to this comparison, should be of very good quality, to compare with the Cheoylee, what seems not to be the case.


This boat, opposite to the Cheoylee, has always at least two cabins, with sometimes a third cabin or at least an additional bunk.

So it is unfair to say that the cheoylee has a lot more space, it seems to me that if that boat can compensate in interior area its smaller length (due to the caravan type of his set-up), fact is that it has less cabins and if the quality of the interior is better it is just because the other is not a production boat and it looks that its interior is not of very good quality.
It could be otherwise, so, let’s consider different kinds of interior space, but comparable in a way. Fair enough?

So let’s proceed with some indispensable questions to go on with this comparison:

1 -What is the Adams version, the one with a dog-house or the traditional one? Hull material, boat year of building?

2 – What is the mileage that the sail boat has covered in the cruising season?

We know that the engine has worked 50hours in a season, but because it is a good sailboat, it could have sailed around the world with those 50 hours of engine use.

What is important regarding fuel cost while cruising is the fuel cost/mile, for the same total mileage (cruising season), taking into account that the motorboat is always wasting fuel while travelling and that the sailboat, when sailing, is wasting nothing and when motorsailing is wasting about half of what it wastes going only on the engine.

We can then use those data for calculating, as I had previously proposed, fuel costs for different types of use, different cruising mileages/year . I have suggested:

Originally Posted by Vega

I will say four mileages/year: 500 miles/year, 1500 miles/year, 5000 miles/year and 10 000 miles a year.

And these proposal is applicable to the mileage you typically do for season, but if you want we can also calculate costs to 750 and a 1000m/year.

Of course, I can use the data I have gathered with the use of my sailboat while cruising, but as the Adams is a better sailboat and almost certainly your brother in law is a less “hurried” sailor than me, he probably uses less his engine and sails a lot more.

3- The Cheoylee is a rather heavy boat with a short waterline. You only say that the boat can average 4m/G but you don’t say at what speed. Can I assume ¾ of the hull speed, or can you tell us at what speed and engine rpm?

And I think that if you send me these data, we can do a less “bony” calculation of global cruising costs between both boats, considering different mileages a year.


PS. It would be very interesting if your brother in law would join this discussion.
Can you suggest that to him?

[Vega]

It looks I have here a very nice trawler. I like this one and it seems to have "normal" engines for its size: 2x40hp.

http://www.cascadeyachts.com/ct36_0.htm

[Ari]

Sorry to interrupt with boat of different size than stipulated. Have some discussion with the crew of 120 footer Heesen last Friday. They had done bunkering with 40,000 litres of diesel when in Darwin, took 12 days at about 13 to 14 knots to reach Singapore, consumed 22,000 litres of diesel..proceed to Port Dickson, reach their base marina after 14 days with stop over in Singapore.While in Perth they make friends with a couple on a 40 footer sail boat, met the couple again in Darwin when the Heesen is departing for Singapore, met the couple again in Port Dickson marina 24 days after the Heesen departed Darwin..How much diesel can a 40 footer sail boat carry ?The sail boat make more or less the same passage from Darwin to Port Dickson..with lower cost.The sail boat proceed to Phuket after a few days break in Port Dickson.I know their size are different..and they are doing passage not cruising ?.What interesting to me is that for every single passage journey in a 100% motoryacht, diesel is top priority, in a sail boat it is not.That mean the boat still can travel even if the owner is on a tight budget.Sorry I don't know the cost for a 40 footer boat sail, mast and riggings.

[Wellydeckhand]

Why not compare a 65ft motoryacht, a sail yachts 65ft and a motorsailer 65ft? To see which would have the best overall performance in term of speed and lowest cost of maintaince? I know I am learning from a useful sizable 65ft....


Cheers

WDH

[Willallison]

Vega - 1st up apologies - my brother-in-law's (BIL from here on..) boat is actually called an Adams 12

http://boatpoint.ninemsn.com.au/Desk...as=boatpointau

This boat appears to be better finished inside than my BIL's but otherwise the boats are basically the same. The layout is essentially the same as that which you posted for the Adams 40. A (somewhat small) cabin in the bows and a pair of tunnel berths either side of the companionway steps. I'd hardly class these as 'cabins' so I'd disagree that the two are not equivalent in accomodation (at least in that respect). At the end of the day, both will sleep 8.
The pics of CheoyLee are the same as ours. The boat was definitely designed as a single-engined craft. I don't know how many - if any - were built that way. Market forces probably demanded that the boat had two engines...

When I said bare-bones comparison, I didn't mean I'd ignored a whole lot of stuff - I just didn't bother listing the many costs that are inherent in boat ownership, but which ar likley to be roughly the same for both boats - like antifouling.

As far as mileage goes, I agree, that the best way of comparing would be to come up with a $/mile figure. But the only real way of getting this is if accurate logs have been kept (and they haven't!). I would estimate, howver that the boats would travel a similar distance each year - the sailboat perhaps marginally more, but not much

As far as my BIL's thoughts go - I know what he'd say. He's a die-hard sailor and would rather sink with his (more expensive!) sailboat than admit it cost more to run than a stinkboat!!

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Vega

It looks I have here a very nice trawler. I like this one and it seems to have "normal" engines for its size: 2x40hp.
http://www.cascadeyachts.com/ct36_0.htm

Interesting design. In a hurry now, but I'll take a closer look later.
Cheers.

[FAST FRED]

"Why not compare a 65ft motoryacht, a sail yachts 65ft and a motorsailer 65ft? To see which would have the best overall performance in term of speed and lowest cost of maintaince?"

The only variable would be speed . The displacement hull form of the sail & motorsail would be nearly identical although the M/S should have larger fuel tanks.
If the motoryacht ran at displacement speeds the fuel burn would be very similar.
If she ran on the plane 1/2 a K for each gallon an hour fuel burn would be lucky.

Any cost differences would mostly be from the level of complexity of the intereior and number of electric gadgets and "comforts" .
Not too many sail boats carry generators for air cond and freezers , but most MS or motor boats will ,(assuming 65ft).

FAST FRED

[Vega]

Don't be sorry. I know the price of some 40ft sailboats, but I don't have the slightest idea about the number of millions that you have to pay for a 120ft Hessen

Once, arriving at Palma de Maiorca after a straight passage from Portugal, my daughter asked me to go to the more expensive marina in the bay, because that one had a swimming pool and she felt the need of a swim. She had crewed the boat with me, and she deserved that swim. So I called the marina and it happened that they had not a place for my 36ft boat. I asked if they had another place, even bigger, and the lady said they had a 40....place. I didn’t quite understand, but I was thinking of a 40ft place, but when I got the price, I understood she was talking about 40m. The price for a day was 400 euros

[Ari]

Originally Posted by Vega

Don't be sorry. I know the price of some 40ft sailboats, but I don't have the slightest idea about the number of millions that you have to pay for a 120ft Hessen

Here what I meant is the cost of sail, mast, rigging and their maintenance.
Of course the Heesen will cost more as a boat compare to the 40 footer sail boat(about USD10-12 million) I just want to compare cost per journey, and shows that the same task can be perform with different cost and different level of luxury.

Originally Posted by Vega

Once, arriving at Palma de Maiorca after a straight passage from Portugal, my daughter asked me to go to the more expensive marina in the bay, because that one had a swimming pool and she felt the need of a swim. She had crewed the boat with me, and she deserved that swim. So I called the marina and it happened that they had not a place for my 36ft boat. I asked if they had another place, even bigger, and the lady said they had a 40....place. I didn’t quite understand, but I was thinking of a 40ft place, but when I got the price, I understood she was talking about 40m. The price for a day was 400 euros

I agree with you..the cost of having a 40m boat and a 40 feet boat is different..even just to get alongside at marina will punch a big hole in the bank account..I still use that example because I cannot find any 30 or 40 footer power boat that had performed more or less same type of ocean crossing passage(about 3000 nautical miles).