cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

The sight of land...that's a place dangerous to sail and most acccidents happen. If you are caught in a storm whith a lee shore and your Nordhavn 105 HP engine fails, you only have the 27 HP good-for-nothing 'home maker': You'll better pray Saint Pedro Telmo for the salvage services to be efficient!

Paulo, I have to agree with Will: Motorboats usually have much more inside room than sailing boats. That's one of the reasons why many people go motoring. Trawlers, like the Nordhavn, are pretty good to that end.

Talking about the best engine arrangement for a motoring passagemaker with a lot of hotel services, like usual nowadays, probably a diesel electric arrangement with two engines, two generators and one big slow turning propeller handled by an efficient electric motor, is the safest & fuel efficient alternative. I would like to know opinions on this.

I agree with what you say about the 27 hp. In a stormy sea I believe it will be pretty useless, but to be fair, if you lose the rig on your sailboat (in similar conditions), the 29hp engine of a pure sailboat will also be close to useless. The Oceanis with 55hp is a lot better.

About the inside space, I have already replied to Willallison. I guess that it will depend on the motorboat.

About the diesel electric, you know I like the concept, but let's stick to what the market can offer now, as standard engines.

About my opinion on Diesel-electric, I will post something (when I have time) in the thread about Diesel-electric motors.

[Greenseas2]

A sailboat will require slightly higher maintenance costs than a power boat in that everything deteriorates in a salt water environment. However, many of these costs are spread over a relatively long period of time. As an example, electric wires inside of a mast deteriorate to the point that mast head wind instrucments are disabled, as are steaming lights, anchor lights and spreader/mast mounted deck lights. Masts have to be removed periodically and rewired. While a mast is down is a good time to check rigging and replace it if necessary. All of this costs money. Mast removal and replacement by a reputable and knowledgeable boat yard will cost over $1,000 plus any work. For those who have painted masts, this is another expense if you want your boat to be Bristol.
A little tip on inexpensive boat maintenance for both asil and power is flushing the salt crystals out of your cooling system. Put clear white vinegar in a 5 gallon bucket, close the through hull valve and disconnect the engine water intake hose at the through hull. Put the hose in the bucket of vinegar and fire up the engine. This will clean out any accumulate salt crystals in the cooling system and also clean out you exhaust muffler with raw water cooling systems. Also good before winter dry storage up noth before adding nontoxic antifreeze. Flushing with cut down on internal rust and extend he life of the cooling system a engine.

[Vega]

Hey! I have found a very nice one.

How about the Sturier 40, to compare (I knew the boat but could not remember the name... gave me some trouble to find the site )

About the interior space, this one has one cabin and a head less, but has a dining space, so I guess it is a match.

Fact is that this boat is a class act, and it is not comparable to the Beneteau in quality. Guess we have to compare it with a Nordship 40, for example, if you guys can not find anything better, I mean, motorboats.

http://www.sturier.nl/sturierned/Stu...OCinternet.wmv
http://www.sturier.com/

[Greenseas2]

Beautiful boat but looks expensive. What's the going price for a used one?

[Vega]

It is difficult to find used boats and it looks that the boat has a high resale value.

http://www.sturier.nl/occasions/400oc.html

How about this one?

The steel hull costs for a 13,5m boat 60900 euros incl. vat and the 15m costs 69000 eu.

http://www.vvmt.nl/
http://www.boten.nl/Motorboot/109263..._of_15.00.html
http://www.yachtsfromdutch.com/motor...en/default.htm
http://www.cascona.nl/beurtvarder135...sche_gegev.htm
http://www.vvmt.nl/fr_index.html?/Be...ekeningen.html
http://www.cascona.nl/beurtvaerder1350_fotogalerij.htm

[Greenseas2]

That is the style that I have been looking at for the past couple of months. Problem is we need the designs in the US as the cost of shipping either the finished boat or precut kits is very expensive. Also looking in the 45 foot range. Small power plant and plenty of room to work on the engine.

[Willallison]

Sorry guys, I simply haven't the time to devote to this that it deserves at the moment. I have my final Westlawn exam to complete and submit, so until then I'll have to restrict my input to the occaisional comment.

I've just sent off a couple of emails
- one to the editor of Passagmaker magazine, who has experience in both sail and power and who, if I recall correctly has made similar comments to mine in the past.
- The other was to Steve Dashew. If there's anyone more qualified to comment on build owning and operating both sail and power passagemakers, I'd be very surprised.

We can only wait and see what comes of it....

Vega - I would disagree that a sailboat is inherently safer offshore than a power boat. That said I would say that the vast majority of sailboats are safer than the vast majority of power boats offshore. It's simply a matter of design priorities and objectives - so given the way most power boats are used, things like ultimate stability are not given the attention that maybe they should....

[FAST FRED]

The usual set of sails will stand 5 years of exposure to sunlight.

Thats a lot of miles if you do two circumnavigations, not much value if they rot uncovered at a dock.

Speed is the ONLY advantage of a marine motorist , if you can afford 1 gallon per mile.
At displacement speeds most sail boats use less fuel because the usual smaller engine is a better match to the actual HP required.

Of course there arent many 3 story sailboats with Oxygen tents perched above , so accomidations may suffer on the sailboat.

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

Fred, sialboat designers have done a pretty good job of putting a lot of livability in to efficient hull designs. For the mega sail boats you can get a multi deck plan of 2 to 3 stories if you want to pay the price. The amount and luxury found on boats is centered around the almighty buck.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Willallison

I've just sent off a couple of emails
- one to the editor of Passagmaker magazine, who has experience in both sail and power and who, if I recall correctly has made similar comments to mine in the past.
- The other was to Steve Dashew. If there's anyone more qualified to comment on build owning and operating both sail and power passagemakers, I'd be very surprised.

We can only wait and see what comes of it....
.

Good move

Originally Posted by Willallison

Vega - I would disagree that a sailboat is inherently safer offshore than a power boat. That said I would say that the vast majority of sailboats are safer than the vast majority of power boats offshore. It's simply a matter of design priorities and objectives - so given the way most power boats are used, things like ultimate stability are not given the attention that maybe they should..
.

I did not said that a "sailboat is inherently safer offshore than a power boat".

I have said:” It is a lot easier to make seaworthy sailboats than seaworthy motorboats , and therefore less expensive”, I mean a sailboat, by design, has to have already a lot of stability (to be able to use sails), so you don’t have to pay extra $ for it.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

That is the style that I have been looking at for the past couple of months. Problem is we need the designs in the US as the cost of shipping either the finished boat or precut kits is very expensive. Also looking in the 45 foot range. Small power plant and plenty of room to work on the engine.

The Beurtvaerber 1350 (13,5 m) seems to fit all your demands. 45ft = 13,7 m. The engine is a small one, in a big engine compartment.

For the designs try to talk with the designer, I am sure he will be happy to have a traditional Dutch boat built in the States.
The problem is that I have tried but could not find it (the designer). I don’t know if it is Henri de Groot. But you can email him and ask about the plans, or ask for help to the Dutch members of this forum.

http://www.cascona.nl/index.htm

[fcfc]

Originally Posted by Vega

I did not said that a "sailboat is inherently safer offshore than a power boat".

I have said:” It is a lot easier to make seaworthy sailboats than seaworthy motorboats , and therefore less expensive”, I mean a sailboat, by design, has to have already a lot of stability (to be able to use sails), so you don’t have to pay extra $ for it.

You do not have to pay it as extra, but you have to pay it. You pay the lead in the ballast, you pay the bottom structure, you pay the draft in your marina fees, you pay the lack of speed.

For motorboats, you can pay the seaworthiness as an extra. But when you look at leisure boater population, you will find that the one that truly want to cross atlantic represent less than 0.0001% of the population. The huge majority is not interested by seaworthiness beyond force 4-5.

If you look at Nordhavn boats, they are sold as passagemakers. Nordhavn have sold about 500 boats. They made a marketing mistake. They though in 2004 they could launch a transatlantic rally for their customers. At the idea stage, they interested 70 customers. At the inscription stage, they were only 35. On the start line they were a mere 14. So they accepeted others boats. They sold the idea of a 2006 rally to an external organization. who have given up, too few participants.
This from a base of 500 passagemaker boats.

When you look at this boat : http://www.rangeboat.com/index.php and you see a 40 ft boat category C protected waters. (or the beneteau trawler in category B) It is not a design flaw. It just good management. It is not worth spending money on higher certification since no paying customer will ever need it or even ask for it. By force 6 or 7, most leisure boaters do think it is no longer a leisure, and go to the nearest shelter if they are at sea.

[Willallison]

Speed is the ONLY advantage of a marine motorist , if you can afford 1 gallon per mile.
At displacement speeds most sail boats use less fuel because the usual smaller engine is a better match to the actual HP required.

Fred, as expected I would take issue with an absurd statement such as that, but we are not here to argue which is better - sail or power - as there will never be an answer that will satisfy us all. We are here to examine the costs associated with building, owning and operating boats of each type.

I have also sent an email to Jim Leishman, founder of Nordhavn and asked for his input. I'm not too sure that he'd agree with much of what you guys have said about his boats! . If he chooses to respond, we'll see....

[FAST FRED]

The usual building costs will be higher for the marine motorist if the vessel will have any usefull ocean abilities.

Just the cost of far far larger windows , ports and doors will add many thousands , esp if they are built for blue water work and have storm ports.

Size for size the extra windage of the sail rig does not compare to the huge pilot houses on motorboats , so the ground tackle and retrival gear will need to be heavier , and more complex/costly.

The inherent lack of stability in the motorboat usually requires either a full active stabilization system , computer , hyd activated fins , pumps , spair parts and extra holes in the bottom,
OR paravanes (flopper stoppers) with the usual attending acres of pipes and wires to enable them to be used.

All more cost and maintance , and the loss of the ability to clear low bridges.

For the "poo folk" our green friend is contemplating cruising , there are FAR more used ocean usefull sail boats than motor boats.

Even the ralley quoted above was a near disaster with swimmers needed to go from boat to boat , mid ocean, to attemp to solve problems from complex , not owner maintainable equippment.

A simple used sailboat would only require refreshing anything that was too worn to finish voyage contemplated.And a self steering gear like the Aries.

KISS is the way to low cost cruising , but can the "Modern Man" survive with out refrigeration, sat TV , icemaker , central heat ,ect, ect?

I lenjoy KISS ,
but I LOVE my Hyd Capstan to drag that 60lb Danforth or CQR and chain into its chocks too!


FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

Fred, I agree with you 100% on the kiss principle; however, whether motor, sailor or motorsail, keeping all necessary systems as 12 volt systems eliminates a lot of problems, plus equipping a boat with only those items necessary. 12 volt Adler/Barbour refrigeration systems were actually first designed for long range cruising vessels and draw the least current of any similar units. It's not necessary to have the unit on full time either. You can chill for about 2 hours and have the unit off for about 4 hours, all done with an inline timmer. Of course, if the unt is continually opened, it will have to be on full time, but thermos containers can help with both hot and cold foods to minimize the need to open the refrigeration unit. A power budget will tell you if you are over taxing your electrical system. If more power charging is needed to support electronics or electrical needs, the wind chargers today put out about 400 watts. The "I want syndrome" is what causes the price of the vessel to sky rocket. Just like an automobile, the added accessories can add costs that are phenominal.