cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vega:
"The large production companies…build boats that are strong, well engineered and safe".


I have serious doubts about this, as my experience as surveyor indicates quite the contrary.

Hum, this quote seems a little bit misleading. That’s true that I have posted that but I am not the one who has said: "The large production companies…build boats that are strong, well engineered and safe”.

The credit of that quote is for Georges Day. It is him who has written that.

Georges Day is the founder and editor of Bluewater sailing magazine. He is one of the most respected and knowledgeable boat testers and writers, with hundreds of test sailed boats and published articles.
He is also a great sailor, a circumnavigator, with many thousands of miles in his logbook.

I believe his opinion deserves credit, even more, if we consider that this is the general opinion of professional specialized journalists and test boaters all over the world.

[Vega]

Vega - quoting Georges Day, editor of Bluewater Sailing magazine:

“The large production companies…build boats that are strong, well engineered and safe.

…in essence the boats you will see at a boat show…will take you and your family just about anywhere you want to sail….

In the end modern production boats are platforms on which we build our own specific voyaging boats.

…Selecting a good cruising boat these days are simpler than ever because just about every boat you will consider will be capable of safe mid latitude and tropical cruising.”

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

Where do you think George Day get s his revenue stream from?

This is an odd statement. Do you imply that George Day, a highly respected sailor and writer has been “bribed” by the large boat manufacturers to publish inaccurate and dangerous opinions regarding the boats he tests?

Do you think that all other boat testers and specialized journalists, from all sailing magazines around the world, have been bribed by the same companies to say exactly the same?

Do you think that the outstanding technicians that were paid by the EU to make a legislation to protect the citizens, a legislation that is mandatory and certifies as Class A all the boats considered adequate to sail offshore, were also bribed by those companies?

My…that’s a vast conspiracy !!!!

That’s a lot of accusations ! Don’t you think that it is more adequate to consider that simply your divergent opinion is not a mainstream opinion but just a marginal one?

There is not right or wrong about this (except to call prominent authorities on the subject, dishonest ). Everybody is entitled to have his opinion, as everyone is entitled to have his personal view of what should be his cruising life-style.

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

I absolutely disagree, the production boast justa bout always have such tiny tankage that you cant even cross from west coast USA to your first stop,in the Pacific islands without taking heaps of fuel in cans!! So how does that leave the statement:"will take you are your family anywhere""??
i looked at ex charter boats in BVI and the farr designed international 50 only had 100 us gals fuel, not enough to keep thr batts up and the freezer down, let alone allow for motorsailing, all the beneteaus,and dufours same, useless,

Well, I think you are generalizing to everybody your personal cruising life-style
Some like it that way; others prefer it lighter and faster and others will simply prefer not to have a freezer at all.

Recently, a 52 year-old French sailor has completed a circumnavigation in a big production 34ft sailboat (a 15 year old Jeanneau). It was a non stop circumnavigation by the three capes and he went down to the high latitudes (the roaring forties). As you know a light boat like that (4.7T) can not carry a big load, but it was enough for him to sail for more than 180 days.

I remember someone posting about a crossing between USA and Australia on a J120 with a full crew. They wasted 50 L of fuel, only about 1/3 of the boat tankage. And for water, everybody uses a watermaker and clean energies to make it run, instead of transforming his boat on a tanker.

Lazy, let me clarify one thing: I am not saying that a modern production 40ft boat is as seaworthy as your aluminium 54ft (quite the contrary) what I am saying ( and what I believe George Day is saying), is that a 40ft modern production cruisingboat adequately prepared is a safe boat for bluewater sailing in mild climates.

Of course, I suspect that if people could afford your 54 aluminium boat (and the expenses associated with it) they would gladly prefer it over any 40ft “plastic” boat, but they can’t . That boat would cost 5 times more than the plastic 40ft.

Even an aluminium production 40ft will cost 2 times more than one of those “plastic” 40ft.

[Vega]

Well, enough of that, if someone whishes to continue, please do so on the seaworthiness thread.

Let’s talk of boats.

Catmando and other cat fans, I have found a relatively small cat that I would like to own, or put it another way, I find this one beautiful. Take a look at the Alibi 47.

Unfortunately what I have been saying about cats is true also on this case. They are more expensive than similar sized monohulls. These one costs about 760 000 euros, fully equipped, diesel-electric engines and all. For the ones that can pay that, it seems a good price, considering the quality, technology, speed and fun potential .

http://www.catalibi.fr/main.html

http://www.matter-mag.com/2006/12/di...yachts-set.cfm

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/editor/pimpin.php

[lazeyjack]

Originally Posted by Vega

Vega - quoting Georges Day, editor of Bluewater Sailing magazine:

“The large production companies…build boats that are strong, well engineered and safe.

…in essence the boats you will see at a boat show…will take you and your family just about anywhere you want to sail….

In the end modern production boats are platforms on which we build our own specific voyaging boats.

…Selecting a good cruising boat these days are simpler than ever because just about every boat you will consider will be capable of safe mid latitude and tropical cruising.”






This is an odd statement. Do you imply that George Day, a highly respected sailor and writer has been “bribed” by the large boat manufacturers to publish inaccurate and dangerous opinions regarding the boats he tests?

Do you think that all other boat testers and specialized journalists, from all sailing magazines around the world, have been bribed by the same companies to say exactly the same?

Do you think that the outstanding technicians that were paid by the EU to make a legislation to protect the citizens, a legislation that is mandatory and certifies as Class A all the boats considered adequate to sail offshore, were also bribed by those companies?

My…that’s a vast conspiracy !!!!

That’s a lot of accusations ! Don’t you think that it is more adequate to consider that simply your divergent opinion is not a mainstream opinion but just a marginal one?

There is not right or wrong about this (except to call prominent authorities on the subject, dishonest ). Everybody is entitled to have his opinion, as everyone is entitled to have his personal view of what should be his cruising life-style.



Well, I think you are generalizing to everybody your personal cruising life-style
Some like it that way; others prefer it lighter and faster and others will simply prefer not to have a freezer at all.

Recently, a 52 year-old French sailor has completed a circumnavigation in a big production 34ft sailboat (a 15 year old Jeanneau). It was a non stop circumnavigation by the three capes and he went down to the high latitudes (the roaring forties). As you know a light boat like that (4.7T) can not carry a big load, but it was enough for him to sail for more than 180 days.

I remember someone posting about a crossing between USA and Australia on a J120 with a full crew. They wasted 50 L of fuel, only about 1/3 of the boat tankage. And for water, everybody uses a watermaker and clean energies to make it run, instead of transforming his boat on a tanker.

Lazy, let me clarify one thing: I am not saying that a modern production 40ft boat is as seaworthy as your aluminium 54ft (quite the contrary) what I am saying ( and what I believe George Day is saying), is that a 40ft modern production cruisingboat adequately prepared is a safe boat for bluewater sailing in mild climates.

Of course, I suspect that if people could afford your 54 aluminium boat (and the expenses associated with it) they would gladly prefer it over any 40ft “plastic” boat, but they can’t . That boat would cost 5 times more than the plastic 40ft.

Even an aluminium production 40ft will cost 2 times more than one of those “plastic” 40ft.

I AM NOT GENERALISING AND MY own boat will be 38 feet,
you started this article with(family safe cruising) a J120 is not a family cruiser, familys require freezers, I said there is not enough fuel to run a freezer across the Pacific, it seems you want to pick pick pick?. and assume, , assume that I want this that, when I was simply replying to your post. of corse if you do not wish to accept a differeing opinion that is your prerogative)

[lazeyjack]

and I will tell you this for Zilch, a50 foot boat well built sells for the same whatever it is built in, there is just less profit in the metal boat It is not until you achieve a name, that you can price high
Look at the OYSTERS they cost 3 times as much because they have a name, does not necessarily mean they are better,

[lazeyjack]

and one other thing I built that 54 on spec, it took balls, to build without a buyer, I am not rich, it is your assumption again? i sold her in the nick of time , any longer I would have had to morgage my house

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Vega

Well, enough of that, if someone whishes to continue, please do so on the seaworthiness thread.

Why.....?

[Vega]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

I AM NOT GENERALISING AND MY own boat will be 38 feet,
you started this article with(family safe cruising) a J120 is not a family cruiser, familys require freezers, I said there is not enough fuel to run a freezer across the Pacific, it seems you want to pick pick pick?. and assume, , assume that I want this that, when I was simply replying to your post. of corse if you do not wish to accept a differeing opinion that is your prerogative)

Lazyjack, I don't assume anything. When I was talking of generalizing I was saying you were assuming that everybody has to do the same choices you do, regarding cruising. You say that a family needs a freezer but I know a lot of long range cruisers that only use their freezers at the marina and not on passage. I know some that don’t even have a freezer and even know of one that circumnavigated with no engine. And between those that don’t have a freezer I know of one that had a boat built, an expensive 40ft aluminium one. The option of not having a freezer resulted not for lack of money, but for the love of simple things and simple life. After all, sailors lived without a freezer for thousands of years.

I am not assuming you are rich, only saying that for owning a 56ft boat, a sailor has to be wealthy and I was not referring to you, even if being rich don’t look as a bad thing to me .

About the J-120, I reread the story and it was a J40 (not a J120) and that is a fast cruising boat. The J120 is the new cruiser-racer (made in France) and is also a cruising boat, a very fast one.
The J40 wasted from S Francisco to Sidney 40 Galons of fuel (not 40L) and they didn’t have to carry any fuel outside the tanks (they didn’t make it non stopping).

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Why.....?

Because this thread is about budget cruising and about common people, people that don't have money to buy custom made 50ft boats but that sail and cruise nevertheless. It is also a mainstream thread, about mainstream boats, designers and concepts; mostly about inexpensive production boats, the ones that common people can afford.

Marginal opinions about boats or seaworthiness have their own value, but are out of contest on this thread. Besides, the seaworthiness thread looks to me as being not mainstream on its dominant views, so I think marginal opinions about seaworthiness are especially well addressed there.

[lazeyjack]

French ARE different, no question, but you try living in the tropics with no means of keeping things cool , the milk goes rancid in an hour, your lettuce wilts, your beer boils, your butter runs into the bilge, this is afterall 2007 Here if you catch a tuna, and dont chill it, and leave it in the sun and eat it that night, you will die!! and that is no joke, it happened recently in NZ, one died two were so ill, they nearly died, it is a known phenomenom, in the brown flesh of pelegics
By the way save me looking an looking, have you built a boat or sailed across an ocean?> thats what so frustrating abt virtual, you never really can sit and chat,
I myself would prefer kero lights, solar batt charging, and tiny single lung diesel, very powerful rig, self steering,, but unlesss you allow for(luxuries) then you limit, severely your resale
Another thing, you fill the bottom of an alloy boat with integral tanks, you then icrease your stab and the peace of mind having reserve fuel is not to be underestimated, ever tried running through a coral reef low on fuel> its very very scary

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Vega

Besides, the seaworthiness thread looks to me as being not mainstream on its dominant views, so I think marginal opinions about seaworthiness are especially well addressed there.

Ah! I see...your extensive knowledge, experience and humility again. Thanks!

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Ah! I see...your extensive knowledge, experience and humility again. Thanks!

You don’t have to thank me, you are welcomed.

[catmando2]

Originally Posted by Vega

Well, enough of that, if someone whishes to continue, please do so on the seaworthiness thread.

Let’s talk of boats.

Catmando and other cat fans, I have found a relatively small cat that I would like to own, or put it another way, I find this one beautiful. Take a look at the Alibi 47.

Unfortunately what I have been saying about cats is true also on this case. They are more expensive than similar sized monohulls. These one costs about 760 000 euros, fully equipped, diesel-electric engines and all. For the ones that can pay that, it seems a good price, considering the quality, technology, speed and fun potential .

http://www.catalibi.fr/main.html

http://www.matter-mag.com/2006/12/di...yachts-set.cfm

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/editor/pimpin.php

Nice to look at but does nothing for me as a "real world" boat, might scratch the paint

To almost quote you,

Of course, I suspect that if people could afford your 47 ft Alibi cat (and the expenses associated with it) they would gladly prefer it over any 40ft “plastic” cat, but they can’t . That boat would cost 5 times more than the plastic 40ft.

Maybe not 5x, but getting out there none the less.

Like a lot of vessel's you have picked in your extensive thread, they are lovely on paper, and tied up to a marina, but in real life, real use situations, have too many features that one does'nt need, and not enough benifit's that one does.

Like I said in earlier post's, a lot of production boat's are nice and shiny out front, but still choppies and snot [ ordinary build]behind the pretty facade

Dave

[Vega]

Dave, give me an honest answer.

Suppose I want to buy your motorcat, fully equipped and all. Have a legitimate profit with your work and make a price that can really compensate you for your work and time.

How much?

Better be honest, otherwise you are going to have a lot of buyers .

I am not kidding you, I really am curious and not only your answer will be interesting to this thread, but it can also start a good business for you. I like your motorcat and if you can sell it for two times the price you say it costs to you, I believe you will find many future clients. You will be a wealthy man in no time .

[lazeyjack]

a rule of thumb Vega
To build a custom yacht-- sailing, to the highest standards 100000 a tonne disp
power boats should be cheaper they coat HELL OF A LOT less, but they are in such demand here that fetch more you should have seen the gltz an glitter that sold here recently
I GUARANTEE that not one boat was sold on the strength of her underwater lines, (it was a in the water show) no they are sold on the gltz facter, then when the family climbs abd the first time and out to sea they go, SLAM SLAM SLAM,, everybody comes home bewildered, gradually the boat gets used less and less, after all the most important thing here is to be SEEN with a boat tied up to your house(the majority of new estates on the coast here are canal developments) there is nowhere to sail or motor two, the reef is 4 days away,