cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[catmando2]

But of course the reason that a lot of "Serious" cruisers get a boat built, or build one themselves is that they can't get the style of boat they want off the shelf.

Benetueu's and Bavaria and similar may be OK for a quick holiday, but as far as serious expadition boat, most are lacking.

Most production boat's are aimed at the masses, production boat's are made to look good in brochures and tied up to marina berth's with lovely sunset's and beaughtiful women lounging around.

Most production boat's are also built to a price, using inferior material's in most cases, having in most cases unecessary weight due to budget constraints, and systems on board that may fail as soon as over the horizon.

Also in reply to this by Vega

"Besides initial price, another reason why it can be more expensive to cruise in a mototboat is that for having the same seaworthiness you need a bigger boat. That happens not only by the nedd of space for having a big fuel tank and two engines but also for stability reasons. Of corse this is not true if you only want to do Coastal cruising in fair weather conditions."

I recently went from Australia to Vanuatu on the 46 ft Cray Boat pictured with enough Diesel on board to do the trip 3 times over [ 3000 nm ] at 8 knot's.

Fair enough, we had 44 gallon drum's of fuel on the deck, but the onboard tankage would have almost got us 1700nm.

This was a far from economical boat, wasting 15lph for it's 8 knot's, but proof that you dont necessarily need a bigger boat and 2 engines, nice but not necessary.

Stability is not an issue on a powercat

This vessel cost $47,000 Aud.



Dave

[shahzadmasih]

Hi, this post is very informative; however I would like some specific information. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Best Regards,

[Vega]

Originally Posted by catmando2

This vessel cost $47,000 Aud.
Dave

What are you talking about? Are you saying that I can have a boat like the one in the picture built for that kind of money?

[catmando2]

Originally Posted by Vega

What are you talking about? Are you saying that I can have a boat like the one in the picture built for that kind of money?

Not at all.

It's just that you said that you need a big boat with 2 engines to have seaworthines and fuel carrying capability, so i'm asssuming equaling big $$$.

This boat can do the big miles carrying a 10 tonne payload all for the cost of $47,000 Aud.

I know it can 'cause I did it in her last month.

Sure she is'nt new, but the engine and running gear is immaculate, and used less than 1 litre of oil on a 1200nm trip spinning at 1200 rpm, the electronic's [big screen plotter, TMQ AP4 autopilot, Furuno sounder etc ] are all new, the general appearance while old is in good condition, and a with couple of thousand $$$ , a tin of paint and a bit of work she'd be pretty as a picture.

This is an ex Bass straight boat weighing in at around 45 tonne, so fairly tough.

Yeah I know, you're not interested unless she does 20 knot's, but she is still a capable vessel.



Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by catmando2

Benetueu's and Bavaria and similar may be OK for a quick holiday, but as far as serious expadition boat, most are lacking.

I agree with you in what concerns expedition boats . For one of those you should look for a steel boat or at least an aluminium boat, but you are on the wrong thread. This one is not about expedition boats but about budget cruising and cruising boats .

Most people that cruise don’t go to high latitudes, they just want to have sun and enjoy life and cruise in mild climates and for those Beneteaus and Bavarias , if properly prepared, are perfectly adequate.

As Georges Day, editor of Bluewater Sailing magazine, as said in a recent editorial:

“The large production companies…build boats that are strong, well engineered and safe.

…in essence the boats you will see at a boat show…will take you and your family just about anywhere you want to sail….

In the end modern production boats are platforms on which we build our own specific voyaging boats.

…Selecting a good cruising boat these days are simpler than ever because just about every boat you will consider will be capable of safe mid latitude and tropical cruising.”

And this guy knows about what he is talking about and that magazine is the best in what regards Bluewater cruising:

“Blue Water Sailing is the authority on offshore sailing, voyaging and world cruising. Founded by circumnavigators George and Rosa Day in April 1996,
the magazine has grown rapidly.
Our mission is to pick up where others leave off and to tell it like it is...no sugar coating and no ad-speak BS. Our monthly reviews reflect hundreds of thousands of miles of sea time and more than 30 years of world cruising, passagemaking, racing and exploring the best cruising grounds near and far”.

Originally Posted by Vega

I agree with you in what concerns expedition boats . For one of those you should look for a steel boat or at least an aluminium boat, but you are on the wrong thread. This one is not about expedition boats but about budget cruising and cruising boats .

Most people that cruise don’t go to high latitudes, they just want to have sun and enjoy life and cruise in mild climates and for those Beneteaus and Bavarias , if properly prepared, are perfectly adequate.

As Georges Day, editor of Bluewater Sailing magazine, as said in a recent editorial:

“The large production companies…build boats that are strong, well engineered and safe.

…in essence the boats you will see at a boat show…will take you and your family just about anywhere you want to sail….

In the end modern production boats are platforms on which we build our own specific voyaging boats.

…Selecting a good cruising boat these days are simpler than ever because just about every boat you will consider will be capable of safe mid latitude and tropical cruising.”

And this guy knows about what he is talking about and that magazine is the best in what regards Bluewater cruising:

“Blue Water Sailing is the authority on offshore sailing, voyaging and world cruising. Founded by circumnavigators George and Rosa Day in April 1996,
the magazine has grown rapidly.
Our mission is to pick up where others leave off and to tell it like it is...no sugar coating and no ad-speak BS. Our monthly reviews reflect hundreds of thousands of miles of sea time and more than 30 years of world cruising, passagemaking, racing and exploring the best cruising grounds near and far”.

I absolutely disagree, the production boast justa bout always have such tiny tankage that you cant even cross from west coast USA to your first stop,in the Pacific islands without taking heaps of fuel in cans!! So how does that leave the statement:"will take you are your family anywhere""??
i looked at ex charter boats in BVI and the farr designed international 50 only had 100 us gals fuel, not enough to keep thr batts up and the freezer down, let alone allow for motorsailing, all the beneteaus,and dufours same, useless,

[Guillermo]

Originally Posted by Vega

The large production companies…build boats that are strong, well engineered and safe.

I have serious doubts about this, as my experience as surveyor indicates quite the contrary.

Originally Posted by Guillermo

I have serious doubts about this, as my experience as surveyor indicates quite the contrary.

i agree, not only the quastion of fuel,
the bilges are so shallow that everything floods, at the slightest ingress of water, the rig is often a day rig, particularly at the vang attachment, fist ocean slop and the thing tears out, the pumps sre so bloody tiny, the joinerworks are never sealed at the edges so the water (straws up)
Where do you think George Day get s his revenue stream from?
When I built NZ,s smallest Lloyds surveyed yacht, Caper, The surveyer turned a high press hose on th hatches, companionwys hatches, and did all manner of things that your average production boat would fail miserablly at
Bah plastic rubbish)

[catmando2]

Lazeyjack and Guillermo, my thought's exactly.

In the example that I am building, all the low powered production powercat's , not that there are any, had maximum accomodation on short hull's afecting sea keeping capabilities, were usually built for survey, with no regard for the ability and strength of reasonably lightweight composite, therefore being heavy, being heavy meant bigger motors to perform, which in turn use more fuel and cut down range.

Most of these boat's would only have a range of a few hundred miles between fill's, not the 2000 plus which I require.

Because they had max accom. on short hull's they had nowhere to store a decent dinghy, like a 11 ft tinny with a 15 hp o.b, and most had a deflateable, usless in reef areas and adventureland.

The dinghy is not just for going ashore, it is for exploring areas that you don't or can't take the big boat into.

My version of expedition does not involve high and low lattitude sailing, but does involve being self sufficient for 4 month's at a time in warmer climate areas.

Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by catmando2

Not at all.


This boat can do the big miles carrying a 10 tonne payload all for the cost of $47,000 Aud.
……
Sure she is'nt new, but the engine and running gear is immaculate, and used less than 1 litre of oil on a 1200nm trip spinning at 1200 rpm, the electronic's [big screen plotter, TMQ AP4 autopilot, Furuno sounder etc ] are all new, the general appearance while old is in good condition, and a with couple of thousand $$$ , a tin of paint and a bit of work she'd be pretty as a picture.

This is an ex Bass straight boat weighing in at around 45 tonne, so fairly tough.

Yeah I know, you're not interested unless she does 20 knot's, but she is still a capable vessel.

Dave

I would not be interested in a 8k old wooden motorboat even if I don’t doubt the seaworthiness of that boat. Maintenance costs would be one of the reasons, speed, the other .

But regarding seaworthiness and syze of the boat, you are making my point.

I have said:

“Besides initial price, another reason why it can be more expensive to cruise in a mototboat is that for having the same seaworthiness you need a bigger boat. That happens not only by the need of space for having a big fuel tank and two engines but also for stability reasons. Of course this is not true if you only want to do Coastal cruising in fair weather conditions.”

Most production 40ft cruising sailboats, if adequately fitted, will be capable of safely doing ocean crossings. We are talking of boats that weight between 7 and 9 T.

The boat that you are talking about is a 46ft, but most of all is a 45T boat. It weights about 6 times more than a sailboat with a comparable seaworthiness and we know that displacement is linked in many ways with price.

I believe that the reason that boat is cheap is its need of maintenance. I don’t mean that the boat is not in good shape “now”. I am talking of the annual maintenance costs of a 45T wooden boat and believe me I know what I am talking about. I have owned one, a 7m, 3.5T old wooden boat and I know the maintenance you could expect from an old wooden boat.

About costs of old boats versus costs of new production boats, people normally grossly underestimate what they have to pay to put an old boat in shape, underestimate the maintenance annual costs of an old boat as they underestimate all the costs of the time they will waste in doing the job, I mean, putting an old boat in good shape.


See what this marine surveyor says about it:

….The one great advantage of considering purchasing and refurbishing an older yacht is the tremendous differential in the cost of new versus used. A boat that sells for $800K new might have a resale value of $250-300K twelve years later. That's a whopping difference of a half-million dollars, so it doesn't take much imagination to see what could be done in the way of refurbishment with even half that amount. …

Of course refurbishing an older yacht is not only costly, but involves a substantial investment of your own time. … The right way to answer the question of whether its worth your valuable time to get involved in something like this is to look at the cost factors. If purchase price plus cost of refurbishment is substantially less than new cost, then compare this difference against the value of your own time. A major project like this will interfere with your earnings. Whether you're on salary or self-employed, rest assured that you will lose significant work time …

If it is, the next important consideration is how much to budget for refurbishment. The biggest mistake that most used boat buyers make is to grossly underestimate the cost of putting things in order, even if they don't plan to do all that much. A common example is someone who buys a fifteen year old 46 foot sport fisherman for $175,000 and then thinks it only needs another $15,000 to get it in shape. This, for a boat with a replacement cost of $750K. Obviously, $15K is a drop in the bucket, and if that's all he can afford, he really can't afford the boat anyway.
…
When evaluating a budget for a used boat, think of price in terms of what a new boat costs, for this puts the matter of cost in its proper perspective. Since the choice is between new and used, the difference in cost must be a factor in assessing what it will cost to own a used boat. There's a reason why that 15 year old boat is selling for $175K and not $750K: its called wear and tear. It's got $575,000 worth of lost value, a sizable part of which would be required to bring it back to tiptop shape.

A very good rule of thumb for estimating refurbishing costs is to allow at least 50% of the purchase price for a boat in average condition and 100% for one in poor condition. These numbers assume that most the expenses go to engine, machinery, various systems and interiors. However, more extensive refits require even more (such as repainting and major interior renovations or new equipment additions) and are not beyond the bounds of being a reasonable investment. …

Don't make the mistake of thinking of cost in terms of what resale value will be years later. You don't recover your costs with a new boat, and you won't recover them with a refurbished used one either. While you'll probably get more than you paid, it won't be all that much more. …

From experience we know that even late model diesel motor boats require a certain percentage of sale price to repair defects, replace canvas, upholstery, carpet, upgrade electronics and all the other things that new owners usually attend to. This depends on size and value, but for a six year old 40 footer would typically be 8-10% of price. After six years, that amount rises steadily, mainly because of increasing deferred maintenance, meaning wear and tear that stays worn and torn. By the time the vessel is 12 years old, deferred maintenance reaches the point where the entire boat may need refurbishing, and we're no longer talking about 50% but 100% of sale price or more.

Does this kind of money make good sense? Again, think about how much more a new, or newer, boat will cost.

… If you're looking at a larger boat than you would ordinarily consider, just because it is older and the price is lower, you need to re-aim your sights on something smaller.

.. But its not until you actually own the vessel and have spent sufficient time on it (possibly tearing things apart), that you really get a handle on what needs to be done. And, of course, there is always more to be done than you anticipated. ..”

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/usedboats.htm

[catmando2]

Vega said,

I believe that the reason that boat is cheap is its need of maintenance. I don’t mean that the boat is not in good shape “now”. I am talking of the annual maintenance costs of a 45T wooden boat and believe me I know what I am talking about. I have owned one, a 7m, 3.5T old wooden boat and I know the maintenance you could expect from an old wooden boat.

Yep, if you wanted to bring her back to "Winning the wooden boat festival" standard she'd cost some $$$, but as I said, mechanically and structually sound, so as a cheap rough and tumble work/cruise boat, it's all good.

Don't need to worry about scratching the paint on this one.

Labour is very cheap in Vanuatu as well, so she will be very cheap to maintain...............over there.

The reason these boat's sell cheap is the survey requirment's and insurance premiums in OZ make it prohibitive to use her as a commercial vessel, but in Vanuatu where she is now based, it is not an issue.

Infact she will do well there as she is probably the best small "Island Trader " there, all the other's being both more expensive to maintain and run.

Again, not my choice of boat, but just an example of a sound boat that for some would be great.

Here is an excellent site on an Australian couple who did just that in S/E Asia, with great success, and a fair bit of detail on the dollars involved.

http://cruisingunderpower.fastmail.net/

This'll be me soon enough, but in a Light low powered multi thank's.

Dave

[colinstone]

Have a look at Steve Dashew's ideas on sail vs power costs here: http://www.setsail.com/dashew/do_PARADIGM.html
In particular
"Surprisingly we've found that operating costs are a lot less. True, we've got diesel and lube oil to purchase. But the running cost per mile is about sixty percent of what was necessary with Beowulf when maintaining her sails and rig are considered (using diesel at US$2.50/gallon as an average cost)."

Originally Posted by colinstone

Have a look at Steve Dashew's ideas on sail vs power costs here: http://www.setsail.com/dashew/do_PARADIGM.html
In particular
"Surprisingly we've found that operating costs are a lot less. True, we've got diesel and lube oil to purchase. But the running cost per mile is about sixty percent of what was necessary with Beowulf when maintaining her sails and rig are considered (using diesel at US$2.50/gallon as an average cost)."

think we covered the Dashews here before, , diesel here is neary 6 bucks a gallon now!! So, I,m taking orders for self sufficient sailing yachts)
Where in UK are you? cant you sleep?

[colinstone]

North west London, 150ft underground coming to end of 12 hour watch....

[catmando2]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

think we covered the Dashews here before, , diesel here is neary 6 bucks a gallon now!! So, I,m taking orders for self sufficient sailing yachts)
Where in UK are you? cant you sleep?

I take it that is Oz dollars and imperial gallon's [4.5 L] ?????

That's why Langkawi appeal's to me, $2-60 Aud / imperial gallon

$5-00/day Aud for a marina berth if so inclined.

Dave