cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[tpayne]

Willallison

In reply to your post about the power train information.

I got the 180 hp figure for the engine from the builders website.

http://www.unionriverboat.com/

Also, the writeup talks about a large diameter prop (good) turning slowly (also good) so we might expect a reasonalbly efficient drive train.

If you do a rough estimate of fuel consumption I come up with 1.5 l/nm at 8 knots and 1.0 l/nm at 7 knots. Even at 8 nots, the fuel costs work out to approximately $ 1.00 per nautical mile. For sake of comparison, $ 30,000 in fuel costs would get you a circumnavigation. I would put these costs up against the cost of sails, standing rigging, running rigging, winches, blocks etc, and the continual maintenance for the same circumnanavigation.

Admittedly this is a rough estimate only and does not factor in adverse weather or sea conditions.

I personally think the displacement motor yacht it is a great concept, and one which goes a long way towards proving the question originally posed in this thread, that power cruising can be cheaper than sail cruising.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by tpayne

I have been looking for the "perfect boat" that combines the efficiencies of sail and the cost effectiveness of slow speed displacement power.

I think I have found it.

Have a look at this http://www.chuckpaine.com/pdf/RYDER52.pdf and let me know what you think.

My guess is that this boat could cruise at 8 knots, at about 1 litre per nautical mile. Any comments?

Nice boat but I guess that you are a little bit optimistic.
If we use the Volvo engine configurator for choosing the engine, considering a cruising speed of 9k an economic cruising speed of 8k and a max speed of 10.5k, we end up with the d3-160, a 156hp engine.

That will give between 1,6 and 1,8L per nautical mile.

But for a boat like that, regarding economy, it is not the price of fuel that counts most but the initial price. Have you asked Chuck Paine for an estimate? I would say between US$500 000 and US$800 000. These values will put away any idea of inexpensive cruising, no matter the fuel comsumption.

A low consumption, regarding the initial cost of a boat like this will only be important if you really make an annual very high mileage.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

When I built NIMBUS, the boat in my gallery I put 1700l of fuel tanks in, even tho she is a powerful sailing boat.
Stuart

This is your boat? It’s a nice one. It looks like a Dick Zall design but I am sure it is not. Who is the designer?

The problem is that a sailing boat is made for sailing. If in such a small boat you put 1700L of fuel and many liters of water, it will not sail well, no matter what.

I would prefer a very good and light sailing boat, a boat that can sail with 8k of wind, with a 150L fuel tank. On a boat like that you can make a fast crossing using the engine only for the batteries.

But of course, this is personal and it has to do with cruising style and in the end with lifestyle.

[tpayne]

Vega

I expect your fuel consumption figures are closer to the truth. When I did a rough calculation I also got approx 1.5 l/nm at 8 knots cruising speed.

As for the initial price ..... the Chuck Paine website says

"The Ryder 52 will deliver extremely high quality at a price that is within the reach of the common man"

Which is probably " beyond the reach" of this common man.......

Oh well.....tis enough to dream....

[Vega]

Originally Posted by tpayne

"The Ryder 52 will deliver extremely high quality at a price that is within the reach of the common man"

Which is probably " beyond the reach" of this common man.......
....

I believe that Chuck Pain's concept of a common man is a rather strict one

[lazeyjack]

Originally Posted by Vega

This is your boat? It’s a nice one. It looks like a Dick Zall design but I am sure it is not. Who is the designer?

The problem is that a sailing boat is made for sailing. If in such a small boat you put 1700L of fuel and many liters of water, it will not sail well, no matter what.

I would prefer a very good and light sailing boat, a boat that can sail with 8k of wind, with a 150L fuel tank. On a boat like that you can make a fast crossing using the engine only for the batteries.

But of course, this is personal and it has to do with cruising style and in the end with lifestyle.

well she cruised at 18500kg loaded, for 54 feet that is light, and she sailed well, no I built her and sailed her as sailing master

[lazeyjack]

alan mummery did a lot of it and i did all the construction, design, she had a strong 4b cummins, gave her 10.5 top and 8.5 cruise, 130--150 would have been waste
met Paine, will say no more
cept his fees are too much there are guys in here will design(well) for an hourly rate

[Vega]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

well she cruised at 18500kg loaded, for 54 feet that is light, and she sailed well, no I built her and sailed her as sailing master

Sorry about that. The boat looked smaller . You are right; 18.5T is not heavy for that kind of boat. Now it looks even better even if what I really like is ULD boats (the 16 M Cigale weights 11T, probably 12.5 loaded).

[lazeyjack]

i forgive you) yes but Vega, you cruise from here or NZ to the Pacific islands, you need lots of things, I forget how many kg it takes to bring her down 1 cm, about 480 I think, , She has 160mm of antifoul showing before loading of provisions
, so thats 4 tonnes of Bully beef!! and half a tonne of Vodka
Now I,m going back to basics with my next, kero lamps, candles, wind vane sec rudder powerful rig, tiny engine BUT given my advancing years I will put on a hydraulic capstan, why Hyd? cos oil motors dont get tired like dc motors and tiny batterys

[Vega]

Originally Posted by tpayne

Oh well.....tis enough to dream....

Never enough...I mean dreaming

Take a look at this Aluminium 54ft beauty (2x130hp).

Designed by Patrice Laurent and Franck Burgard and offered by a French aluminium shipyard.

[catmando2]

That is one lovely looking boat Vega,but..................

Having recently delivered a powered 8 knot monohull with a yacht hullshape from Australia to Vanuatu, man do they get a roll up.

How would that issue be adressed.
Dave

[lazeyjack]

Originally Posted by Vega

Never enough...I mean dreaming

Take a look at this Aluminium 54ft beauty (2x130hp).

Designed by Patric Laurent and Franck Burgard and offered by a French aluminium shipyard.

but where are the roll stableizers)

[lazeyjack]

Originally Posted by catmando2

That is one lovely looking boat Vega,but..................

Having recently delivered a powered 8 knot monohull with a yacht hullshape from Australia to Vanuatu, man do they get a roll up.

How would that issue be adressed.
Dave

oh for those buck with that boat, roll stableisers are pretty much standard
Vosper thornycroft had em for yonks
When THE CUP was in NZ I went on some of those boats the stabilisers knocked out all the roll,
The Aussie and USA home built versions are to tow paravane flopper stoppers, cheap, effective, hard on fuel and impose enourmous stresses on the hull

[catmando2]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

oh for those buck with that boat, roll stableisers are pretty much standard
Vosper thornycroft had em for yonks
When THE CUP was in NZ I went on some of those boats the stabilisers knocked out all the roll,
The Aussie and USA home built versions are to tow paravane flopper stoppers, cheap, effective, hard on fuel and impose enourmous stresses on the hull

Yep, and the extra cost of stabilizer's, and the extra fuel of paravanes would have to make one consider the extra dollars of a powercat.

Unless of course one has berthing restrictions like Vega.

But for those that don't........................

More space, more comfort, no spilt beer.

Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by taniwha

We just sold our 42 ft alu sailing yacht and start building a passagemaker lite 46 from Tad Roberts Design. We are convinced that sailing is more expensive than cruising the PL 46. We have been live aboard for about ten years and spent all these years "down" the hull while we will now enjoy the pleasure of the deckhouse. Yes of course we could also have build a deckhouse sailing yacht which automatically requires a bigger engine (because of extra weight and wind area) but then we realized that for those few hours of real sailing we spent a whole lot of money! Your rigging and sails get used even in the harbour and new rigging every 10 years is a minimum. We plan to build our Passagemaker lite 46 in woodcore with two engines for less than 250 000 euro. If we would build a 46 sailing yacht it would be a lot more because of mast, rigging, winches, sails, hailyards, sheets etc...And our range? About 5000 miles on our 3000 liter fuel tank. Sailing ?

Hello there, and welcome to this thread. I apologize for not replying sooner but I have a lot of work these days.

Yes, in some cases cruising with a sailing boat can be more expensive than cruising with a motorboat. That happens if you don’t make a high annual mileage, even if the initial price of the boat is really what counts most..

Can you tell us how many miles you have covered in the 10 years you have been living abord?

Regarding the price of a sailboat versus motorboat, the fact that the boat is built by you tend to mix the reality. No way of getting a boat like that, built by a shipyard by that price. If that boat was built at a shipyard, the mast, rigging and sails would only account for 10 to 20% of the boat’s price and that would put all the importance in the initial price of the boat, if we consider economy.

Unlike cruising motorboats, cruising sailboats are made in large numbers by some large manufacturers like Bavaria or Beneteau and that allows that large production sailboats are a lot less expensive than cruising motorboats. The 15% cost of rig and sails is absorved by the huge gains provided by mass production.

One can ask why there are not big production displacement motorcruisers, because if there would, they would cost 15% less than their cruising siblings. The reason is that there are not a large demand for displacement cruising motorboats.The vast majority of Motorcruisers prefer planning motorboats and the market reflects that.

Besides initial price, another reason why it can be more expensive to cruise in a mototboat is that for having the same seaworthiness you need a bigger boat. That happens not only by the nedd of space for having a big fuel tank and two engines but also for stability reasons. Of corse this is not true if you only want to do Coastal cruising in fair weather conditions.


Of course, if the boat is built by yourself that’s a completely different ball game. Even if the need of a bigger boat remains (if ocean passages are in the program) the economy that comes from mass production doesn’t count and as you are not taking into account the price of your own work, the percentage of the cost of the rig and sails regarding the overall cost of the boat will be more than 15%.

I agree with you about the deck saloon boat. If we want to enjoy cruising and nice places it makes no sense to live in a basement, even if some modern cruising mass production sailingboats have recently appeared with some relatively large hull portlights that provide you with a view from the interior saloon.

Deck saloon boats don’t need a significantly more powerful engine. Manufacturers that have the same hull with the two versions normally use a 30% more powerful engine.

Regarding the autonomy and the consumption of your future boat, I don’t understand your calculations.
For having that autonomy you should waste only 0.6L/Mile. With two 55hp engines you should waste about 1.5L/Mile. Even if in very good weather conditions you could run only on one engine, your consumption would be about 1.3L/Mile. The consumption would be a little bigger if you went with slightly more powerful engines (the extra power would be very useful in bad weather). Considering these numbers the autonomy of the boat will be of about 2300 miles (on one engine) or 2000miles if operated normally, very far from the 5000 miles that you have estimated.

By this I don’t want to say , considering your particular case and taking into account that you are building the boat yourself and the kind of cruising you want to make, that in your case the more economical option would be a motorboat. I am sure it is. I am only saying that each case is a case and that should be looked individually. I am all against generalizations.

Keep us posted.

Regards

Paulo