cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[catmando2]

Originally Posted by Lancerbye

One has to remember that the world oil production is only very loosely associated withthe actual cost of fuel and even it is being controlled by the oil cartel that is run from the middle east. I am in that region at the present and gasoline prices at the pumps is 18 to 22 cents a liter depending on if you buy premium or Super. There is no tax here which is why the price is based solely on world market price of crude. The price we pay in Canada ( my home) is over $1.00 a liter. The difference is in the taxes. The world supply is obviously diminishing, but the fortunes that are being made by gouging the consumer should be regarded as criminal. The operational costs of motor boats and vehicles are determined by greed not supply.

The cost of resin's is also linked to oil prices, so it makes sense to build light, and low powered.

It is interesting that one can buy Diesel in Malaysia for about .50c/Litre Aud where as in Oz it's about $1-60 Aud

Guess where I'm going to be based at.

Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by catmando2

It is interesting that one can buy Diesel in Malaysia for about .50c/Litre Aud where as in Oz it's about $1-60 Aud

Not bad the Diesel price in OZ. Take a look at the European prices. I guess that it is a question of time till all countries have similar prices. US prices are still lower than European prices, but the increase in the last years has been bigger than in Europe. I bet that that tendency is not going to reverse.

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/

[Vega]

Originally Posted by catmando2

Yep, those cruising cat's sure are are ugly.[tongue in cheek]

But i'll agree that there are some shocker's out there.
Dave

Don’t be like that. I have said:” I like fast boats and I have nothing against multihulls, except that I normally find the cruising ones fat and ugly…”

That is a personal opinion, and for fast I mean a boat that can make easily double digit speeds.

The ones you posted are not bad but I still find them fat. If I were rich I would be tempted to opt by something like the Auriga (post 427) and if I were half my age I would probably opt by this one:

http://www.trimax-europe.com/UK/PDF/brochureUK.pdf

http://www.trimax-europe.com/UK/

I guess that it all has to do with taste. I have mine and I will not try to impose it to the others.

As Lancerbye says:

Originally Posted by Lancerbye

The intended usage has to be the prime directive. ...So boating choices are usually based on usage and personal preferences rather than the bottom line, otherwise we would all be cruising in identical boats and that would be boring .

Originally Posted by Mark Van

I saw the Island Packet PY cruiser at the boat show, next to the motersailer version of it. The boats are identical, except one has a sailing rig added. The price difference was $30,000. That's 10,000 gallons of fuel at todays prices. Figure out how many miles of cruising you would have to do to pay for the rig. Remember that with the motorsailer, you probably would be powering more than half the time. You will probably have to buy a new $10,000 suit of sails before you get to the break-even point. I think that if you do a realistic estimate, you will find out that you will never reach the break-even point.

You have a good point here. Probably the vast majority of users of that motorsailor will never make enough miles to cover the price of the sails and rig. The number of miles would be, (if we consider European fuel prices) 18 000 miles. Personally, in a boat that is not pleasant to sail (like the PY) I would only see advantages in the motorsailor versus the motorboat, in what regards safety (you have two engines) in comfort in seamotion (you have a more stable boat) and in an increased autonomy (even if you motorsail you will waste less fuel while doing that).
If these motives justify the extra 10% in the price of the boat, it is for each owner to decide, but I agree with you that it is not probably an economic issue.

[catmando2]

Originally Posted by Vega

Don’t be like that. I have said:” I like fast boats and I have nothing against multihulls, except that I normally find the cruising ones fat and ugly…”

That is a personal opinion, and for fast I mean a boat that can make easily double digit speeds.

The ones you posted are not bad but I still find them fat. If I were rich I would be tempted to opt by something like the Auriga (post 427) and if I were half my age I would probably opt by this one:

http://www.trimax-europe.com/UK/PDF/brochureUK.pdf

http://www.trimax-europe.com/UK/

I guess that it all has to do with taste. I have mine and I will not try to impose it to the others.

Interesting that you think the cat's are fat.

The tri's you show [ trimax look's like a Farrier knock off] have a fatter main hull than the catamaran's main hull, and the overall beam of the tri is wider than that of a cat, yet the interior volume of the boat overall [ monohull ]is a lot less than a similar sized cat.

I know that for you berthing a "fixed' 24 ft beam is an issue.

As for speed, both those cat's I show are easy double digit boat's if so inclined.

Dave

what a huge thread and interesting too
Most has been covered over,
But I,ll chip in
So many custon sailing yachts, carry so little fuel, even such a boat as the Benetaus(sp) operated by moorings and also as a private boat carry almost no fuel. I went to Caribbean and could not find a boat that would cruise back across the Pacific to here, they simply had not enough fuel to keep food cold or charge the batteries
When I built NIMBUS, the boat in my gallery I put 1700l of fuel tanks in, even tho she is a powerful sailing boat So in my opinion, just abt all cruisers, lack the fuel to long range cruise
As far as the power vs sail goes, then it is pretty much impossible to do in a boat less than say 60 feet, fuel being the reason
in a typical 50 foot sailing yacht you will spend 100000 k above deck, easily, thats very conservative amount, that means euros, or usa , or au currancy, depending upon where you build
As a rule of thumb, you will use 2 imp gals per hour for every 50 bhp so you do the maths
I had a friend who cruised to Pacific, with a 45 tonne 58 foot motor boat, he used one gal(imp per mile) with his 120bhp Perkins, twin screw.
The cheapest way to cruise is on a smaller sailing yacht, 40 feet and under
For me
the most important things are
1 Strength, able to take container strikes and whale hits, and this means only steel or alloy unless you can afford to have a carbon boat built by Greens i UK)
2
She must right quickly and easily and be very watertight
3 she must have small good berths, no big vee stuff
4 She must be able to claw off a lee shore under sail, and be a powerful sailing yacht
5
She should have good ground tackle and powerful winches that enable people who are not so physically strong to get those sails in
6 She should not be bogged with electronics and every effort should be made to keep her simple
7 she should have a full and permanent bimini, because down here the sun is wicked Nimbus has seen 70 knots over the deck with it up
8 She should have a secondary rudder, vind vane operated
in saying all this I believe a small sailboat is far cheaper to own than a a poweryacht, because the poweryacht has to be of a min, disp. to long cruise
once you get a sailboat up there in size it,ll become much much more expensive to build and run
IMO
people go to big,, I have owned built big boast and now Windvang on the site ad I are working to design my last, and she will be 11.6m
Cheers
Stuart

Refridgeration is a major, i think without it boats can be kept very simple as far as systems go,
But IF we do it correctly then this is what we do down in NZ People larf and say it outdated, but it really is the most efficient , albeit initially costly
A tank within a tank, with brine in between
The copper lines are soldered to the outside of the inner tank on three sides, the lines then are running through brine
Around the outside of the outer tank, is 4 inches of poured urathane foam, then a thin layer of alloy foil then the ply box
We then only run twice a day, in the tropics for 30 mins
On charter boats i have seen, and most all the USA boats I have seen, the refridge runs darn near full time
Using 404A we pull down to minus 24 c, or whatever you want, and set a diff of say nine degrees
on Nimbus I had 900 amp hr at 24 dc, I ran the fridge comp through a trace inverter, 110 volts running a copeland semi sealed
yes current draw was large, I should have run 220, but all those different voltages!! so opted for 110 right through ac, and 24 dc
Well this is abt cruising boast!! so I guess this place for this post, is ok?

[catmando2]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

what a huge thread and interesting too
Most has been covered over,
But I,ll chip in
So many custon sailing yachts, carry so little fuel, even such a boat as the Benetaus(sp) operated by moorings and also as a private boat carry almost no fuel. I went to Caribbean and could not find a boat that would cruise back across the Pacific to here, they simply had not enough fuel to keep food cold or charge the batteries
When I built NIMBUS, the boat in my gallery I put 1700l of fuel tanks in, even tho she is a powerful sailing boat So in my opinion, just abt all cruisers, lack the fuel to long range cruise As far as the power vs sail goes, then it is pretty much impossible to do in a boat less than say 60 feet, fuel being the reason
in a typical 50 foot sailing yacht you will spend 100000 k above deck, easily, thats very conservative amount, that means euros, or usa , or au currancy, depending upon where you build
As a rule of thumb, you will use 2 imp gals per hour for every 50 bhp so you do the maths
I had a friend who cruised to Pacific, with a 45 tonne 58 foot motor boat, he used one gal(imp per mile) with his 120bhp Perkins, twin screw.

Hi Stuart,

It would seem that you are only talking Mono's here.

I will carry 2400 litres, so should get around 2200nm range running on 1 engine getting about 8 knot's, so should get her just about anywhere she want's.

She's 50 ft

Has'nt had $100k spent on deck, but will be about that in total [$120k]

She'll be about 8500kg with a full load not 45 tonne like your mates, so as you can see different boat's will have different results.

Dave

[tpayne]

I have read with interest the thread on power vs sailing costs. I have been a lifelong sailor, and feel instinctively that power boats are wasteful of fuel. Why pay for fuel when the wind is free?

It seems to me that it is the design of the powerboat that determines whether is can be made fule efficient. Sailboats have been "optimized" for speed because of the constraints imposed by the limitations of the power generated by the rig. Tht is why sailboats have full displacement efficient hull shapes, low windage, fine bows, and cramped living quarters ( by comparison)

What started me thinking that my assumptions about power boats was wrtong was the design work of Steve Dashew, on his FPB series powerboats.

He is convinced that power boats are cheaper to operate and his website www.setsail.com is the best reference on the subject I have seen to date.

I have been looking for the "perfect boat" that combines the efficiencies of sail and the cost effectiveness of slow speed displacement power.

I think I have found it.

Have a look at this http://www.chuckpaine.com/pdf/RYDER52.pdf and let me know what you think.

My guess is that this boat could cruise at 8 knots, at about 1 litre per nautical mile. Any comments?

Originally Posted by catmando2

Hi Stuart,

It would seem that you are only talking Mono's here.

I will carry 2400 litres, so should get around 2200nm range running on 1 engine getting about 8 knot's, so should get her just about anywhere she want's.

She's 50 ft

Has'nt had $100k spent on deck, but will be about that in total [$120k]

She'll be about 8500kg with a full load not 45 tonne like your mates, so as you can see different boat's will have different results.




Dave

oh I meant a sailboat , masts rig, sails winches, 100k plus, so thsi is a powercat, ? can you post pics? please

[catmando2]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

oh I meant a sailboat , masts rig, sails winches, 100k plus, so thsi is a powercat, ? can you post pics? please

Pic's in gallery

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...0/ppuser/16678

Dave

ah nice job and sensible seagoing transoms and sills above doors.
lots of pluses for power cats,
i find the jiggling motion a bit strange, my experience of cats has been ltd to sail, had a Prout Sheatwater Mk1 as a boy, and then chartered a 40 footer in NU Zild, was great fun, and very sociable platform

Originally Posted by Vega

Not bad the Diesel price in OZ. Take a look at the European prices. I guess that it is a question of time till all countries have similar prices. US prices are still lower than European prices, but the increase in the last years has been bigger than in Europe. I bet that that tendency is not going to reverse.

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eupetrolprices/

the prices in Eu are cheaper than aust, Please dont make the mistake of converting the currancies, you earn your money in euros we earn in pacific pesos, the brits in pounds, so for you with prices lower than a euro ( see the trucks lined up at pumps at the border with Fr) are lower, in UK .95 gbp, per l
Bulgaria is cheapest turkey is WAY the most expensive, at 2.40 lire, A lire is one NZ dollar!!
UKraine is cheaper again, I just drove 40000km from UK to Tr three times last 12 months using 4000litres in my land rover discovery
here diesel is taxed higher than benzine, have no idea why, only other place I know of that happens is UK
i,m working on a small nuclear reactor)

[catmando2]

Originally Posted by lazeyjack

ah nice job and sensible seagoing transoms and sills above doors.
lots of pluses for power cats,
i find the jiggling motion a bit strange, my experience of cats has been ltd to sail, had a Prout Sheatwater Mk1 as a boy, and then chartered a 40 footer in NU Zild, was great fun, and very sociable platform

I find leaning over and spilling my beer worse

I have had both mono and multi, and the cat is way more user friendly, and the chick's love 'em.

Thank's for the compliment's

Dave

[Willallison]

Tpayne - early on in this thread I used the Dashew example of one example of power being less expensive than sail. I email Steve Dashew and posted his response...it's probably worth doing again...

Hi Will:



Interesting question. We studied operating costs quite carefully when designing our present FPB 83. This is a slender, 83’ ocean crossing motor yacht which is very efficient. We compared this design with Beowulf, a 78’ high performance cruising ketch.



Using diesel at a cost of US$2.25/US Gallon, the operating cost of the motor yacht is about 60% of the cost of the sailing vessel when all things are considered. For sail these include replacement of sails, running rigging, sail maintenance, and occasional maintenance on the spars and standing rigging, winches and deck hardware. For the motor vessel we include fuel, oil, maintenance, and replacement of engine and gearbox at 20,000 hours (although tghey should be good for 30,000 hours).



The costs will vary a little with higher fuel. At US$3.00 per US Gallon the motor yacht costs about 75% of the sailing vessel’s cost per mile. Ore, one can slow down from 11 to 10.3 knots and the ratio would remain the same.



For smaller sailing yachts the costs would be closer as the sails could be used for a longer period.



Hope this helps.



Regards – Steve Dashew



PS-we have been averaging US 7.4 gallons per hour at 11 knots for propulsion, hydraulics, and the generation of electricity, running at 11 to 11.5 knots, usually with some head wind and head seas.

As far as the Chuck Paine boat goes, there's no info on the page you posted regarding the power required to drive her, but I'd guesstimate that she'd probably use a little more than your 1 litre per n.mile. Perhaps not as much as two, but most likely somewhere between the two....

[FAST FRED]

"Why pay for fuel when the wind is free?"

For crossing oceans this is a fine concept.

BUT most folks cruise along a shore , anchor out, yet expect many of the comforts of home.

With a good eutetic holding plate as described by Lazeyjack , and a 3 stage Voltage regulator it is really easy to combine the hotel power requirements with only a boat move.

Our cruising style on the Right coast of the USA is to be anchored for no more than 3 days , because on the 4th day the temp in the freezer goes from +5F , normal, and begins to slowly climb.

It takes 2 hours for the engine driven compressor to get to -10F, where the plates are again frozen solid.The electrical use on the boat is very minor at anchor , so 2 or 3 hours of charging is about all they need.

Sails , great , see you in Tahiti! , but for most folks setting a boat up LIKE a sailboat gives the silence at anchor , and all the cold beer and ice cream your system and billfold can handle.

With the main engine working as genset underway , maint is halved and the engine suffers from under loading less.

FF