cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[Vega]

Originally Posted by mamo

Vega,
This is not new technology, they use one diesel electrical jenerator for producing elektrik and two electrical motor for driving the boat. This is used in big ship usually. So, this is cheap..but good technics..

What about their sail performance? Logoon 440 or 420?

Probably the 440 would be a little faster, but not much. If you want a really fast cat you would have to look to other type of boats. And you would have lighter boats, without a so good interior, and not so seaworthy, or should I, say easy boat?

This technology is not new on ships, but this is the first production yacht that offers it as a standard system. It is a new thing on small boats.

Originally Posted by fcfc

Just a small side note: It is not more expensive and burn less fuel because it is a very very tiny power.

The genset is 13 Kw (Around 18 hp). The electric engines are 2 * 10 Kw (around 2 * 13.5 hp).

You can run 2 hours on the battery bank. Meaning 2 * 13 hp for propulsion. Once the batteries are exhausted (2 hours without genset, may 4-5 hours with it), you are only on the genset that will give you 18 hp grand total for both engines. Who would have bough a 12 ton boat with two yanmar 1GM10 for propulsion ? (or a single 2GM20).

The lagoon 440 non hybrid had 2 * 40 hp for propulsion. (With options for 2 * 56 or 2 * 75 hp)

There is no miracle.

Of course, there are no miracle, only a better technology .

Both motorizations have a similar power at cruising speed. The electrical engine can deliver a constant and huge torque all the way. It is a much more efficient engine and therefore, for an equivalent “work” they say that this motorization is similar to the diesel one.

Fcfc, probably you would like to discuss it more, and I think it is an interesting matter, but please continue it at the sailboat diesel-electric thread. It makes more sense, and I will reply there. I am interested in this subject.

Regards

[mamo]

420 is 1220 kg. havier than 440..
and sail area smaller..
so, its performance must be worse..

[mamo]

It seems to me nonsense. In spite of lots of work they do, there is nothing to gain..

http://www.istion.com/lagoon420.html

[Vega]

Originally Posted by mamo

It seems to me nonsense. In spite of lots of work they do, there is nothing to gain..

http://www.istion.com/lagoon420.html

Yes, I have said that, the 440 will be faster, but regarding weight we are talking of 0,9T in 14T, and about the sail area, the 44 version with short mast has less sail area (96.5 to 98.0). Of course if you want a fast boat you will buy the sportier version, but if you want an easier and safer cruising boat you will buy the one with the short mast, and for this one the performance will be very similar.

What you gain is a boat that wastes half the fuel and comes already with an incorporated genset. A boat that will need a lot less maintenance in what regards the engines and a boat that will recharge its batteries while sailing.

It is obvious that the boat have interested a lot of people and that doesn't mean that you find it appealing, it all depends of what you want of a cruising boat, speed or cruising costs with a reasonable speed.

[catmando2]

still amazed that people can think that a boat that weighs that much can be "performance"

Lagoon 440

Overall length 12,61 m / 41'4''
Waterline length 12,30 m / 40'4''
Beam 7,50 m / 24'7"
Draft 1,26 m / 4'2"
Light displacement 11,720 kg / 25,800 lbs
Max displacement (EEC) 12,800 kg / 31,800 lbs

compared to say a

Specifications - Cosmos 1320

http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/www/welcome.cfm


L.O.A
13.20 metres

B.O.A
7.50 metres

Headroom in hulls
1.9 metres

Headroom in bridgedeck
1.9 metres

Payload
1800 kilograms

Displacement
6274 kilograms

B/Deck clearance
800mm


Or infact my current 50 foot cat

with a lightship of 4700 kg

loaded disp 8500 kg

Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by catmando2

still amazed that people can think that a boat that weighs that much can be "performance"

Dave

I was not talking of performance boats. The boats you are talking are fast cruisers, not performance cats.

As a loaded cruiser, I don’t think that the Cosmos 1320 will be significantly faster than the Lagoon 44.

Sure, the Lagoon will need a bigger engine and bigger sails, but it has bigger sails and a bigger engine.

The Cosmos Designer advertises a cruising speed of 10K. I will bet that it is very near the cruising speed for the Lagoon. Sure, in lightship condition and with lots of wind the Cosmos will do 20k and the Lagoon 16k, but those boats were not made to race in lightship condition, and if you abuse a cruising Cat, you can turn a seaworthy boat in a delicate boat to handle and compromise its seaworthiness.

I am not saying that the Cosmos is not faster, I am sure it is, what I am saying is that it is not a performance Cat and that in normal cruising circumstances it will not be much faster than the Lagoon. On the other hand, while de Cosmos has a tankage of 80L fuel and 400L water with a total payload of 1800kg, the Lagoon has a tankage of 900L water and 650L fuel with a total payload of 3000kg. This is a huge difference.

If the relatively small difference in cruising speed is worth the big advantage in cruising ability, it is something that depends on each sailor, but if I want a performance cat from Schionning designs, I would have a Growler cat. That one seems a performance one to me .

Regards

[catmando2]

My 50 footer is timber core and plywood bulkhead construction, not exactly renowned for being the lightest construction technique. Schionning is similiar.

Yet we can get a much lighter cat than these foam cored Lagoons


Sure, i'll agree that the Schionning is limited in it's payload,[use watermakers], but it makes up for it in performance. These will sail at 6 knots in less than 10 kn of breeze. The Lagoon would still be motoring. In 15 knots of breeze the Schionning will do a horizon job on the Lagoon.

We'll get a bit over 3000kg payload on ours, but it is more the fact that we have about the same accomidation as a 40 footer, but on a 50 footer's hulls


Saw some core samples from a 40 ft production foam cored boat over here and it had 10 mm foam and about 6 mm of glass either side of the sandwich, could the Lagoon be done in a similar fashion?

If the Lagoon was built using similar so called heavyweight building techniques like mine and Schionning,or infact used a normal foam , glass , epoxy layup and came in at a similar weight imagine how high on it's lines it would float and how much additional crap you could carry.

I just don't know how you can make a 41 foot cat that heavy.
Do they just upend a few thousand litres of resin in the bilge for the hell of it ? Or do they have lead in their keel ?
Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by catmando2

Saw some core samples from a 40 ft production foam cored boat over here and it had 10 mm foam and about 6 mm of glass either side of the sandwich, could the Lagoon be done in a similar fashion?

If the Lagoon was built using similar so called heavyweight building techniques like mine and Schionning,or infact used a normal foam , glass , epoxy layup and came in at a similar weight imagine how high on it's lines it would float and how much additional crap you could carry.

Do they just upend a few thousand litres of resin in the bilge for the hell of it ? Or do they have lead in their keel ?
Dave

The Lagoon 42 is a bad example, because it carries a lot of batteries and the batteries are made of lead. But we were discussing the 440, that is a “normal” cruising cat.
It weights about 11 Ton, the same as a Catana 43 and not a lot more than the Dean 44 (9.5T) or the Nautitech 44 (9.2). Of course you can find in Europe lighter boats, like the Outremer 42 (6.4T), but this type of boat offers a much smaller interior a smaller load capacity and not the same strength. The Outremer and the Schionning cat are the same kind of boat.

About the Lagoon construction, you can be sure they know what they are doing. They begun as a high-tech company specialized in racing cats. Not anymore, they had turned to cruising cats, but they never abandoned the high-tech building techniques.

The hulls are made with structural contra molds and they use a sandwich mousse, polyester - Vinylester for the sides and use thick monolithic fiberglass for the bottoms.
The bridge and the cabin are made of a sandwich balsa-poliester.

They use Vacuum-bagged infusion technologies, so I believe they don’t waste resin.

I believe they make very strong and very reliable boats.

http://www.cata-lagoon.com/ch_techno_uk.php

Regards

[catmando2]

Actually Vega the Lagoon 42 I mentioned is a rounding up of the length of the Lagoon 44 above

Lagoon 440

Overall length 12,61 m / 41'4''
Waterline length 12,30 m / 40'4''

I understand that they are a very reputable company and they know what they are doing, but even with more accommidation and more load carrying abillity, which really just equates to a fatter waterline width, surely it would just mean that there would be a hundred or more m2 of glass/resin/core material.

This does not equate to 5000 plus extra kilos.

I am of the understanding that light ship is pretty much an empty boat, no fluids, additional batteries , extra anchoring gear, dinghys etc

So I still can't understand where the weight comes in.

Dave

[mamo]

Thanks to Vega Vega I decided to examine all boat which I want to buy.

I was on Fountain Pajot Belize 43 sail catamaran last 3 days. I have lots of photo and sailing video. I also saw and examine a Fountain Pajot Highland 35 powercat. I will send you the photos later. I think I will charter and test Lagoon 440, Highland 35 also.

And here is the polar diagram of Lagoon 440. I think it is right.

[catmando2]

Originally Posted by Vega

About the Lagoon construction, you can be sure they know what they are doing. They begun as a high-tech company specialized in racing cats. Not anymore, they had turned to cruising cats, but they never abandoned the high-tech building techniques.

The hulls are made with structural contra molds and they use a sandwich mousse, polyester - Vinylester for the sides and use thick monolithic fiberglass for the bottoms.
The bridge and the cabin are made of a sandwich balsa-poliester.

Please don't tell me that sandwich mousse is this stuff

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Fiberglass_Boats.htm

This is not a structual foam and I would consider it a cheap ,lazy and heavy way to build a boat.

More info in this thread

FSP "fiber spray putty" to build boats

I won't start on the Polyester and Balsa.

Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by mamo

I was on Fountain Pajot Belize 43 sail catamaran last 3 days. I have lots of photo and sailing video. I also saw and examine a Fountain Pajot Highland 35 powercat. I will send you the photos later. I think I will charter and test Lagoon 440, Highland 35 also.

And here is the polar diagram of Lagoon 440. I think it is right.

What do you think about the boat?

To charter a boat is the best way to evaluate it. You know already the Pajot 43, if you charter the new Lagoon 44 you can have a better idea of both boats and you can chose a lot better, and the price of these babies justifies a good choice. The money you will spend chartering the boats is quite irrelevant, comparing with the price of the boats.

But attention, the Belize 43 is the old boat, the new model is the Orana 44 (I find it ..hum, not beautiful).

Perhaps you should also charter a Nautitech 44 (if you like the looks). It costs about the same, it is a good looking boat and I believe it is the best performer of the three (the hulls are narrower). I have heard that it is a pleasant cat to sail and that you can feel the difference, between this one and the others.

http://www.nautitech-catamarans.com/

All three are 2006 new models

[catmando2]

Certainly getting more like it in the weight depatment Vega, and a good looking boat.


TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Length overall :
39.30 ft

Waterline length :
37.73 ft

Maximum beam :
21.33 ft

Draft :
3.94 ft

Mast height:
49.87 ft

Lightweight :
7.4 tonnes

Infact the 47 footer is lighter than the Lagoon 44 [really 41]


TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Length overall :
47.57 ft
Waterline length :
45.93 ft

Maximum beam :
24.93 ft
Draft :
3.94 ft

Mast height :
59.06 ft

Light weight :
11.23 T

This I would think is a much better boat than the lagoon

Dave

[mamo]

Originally Posted by catmando2

Lagoon 440

Overall length 12,61 m / 41'4''
Waterline length 12,30 m / 40'4''
Beam 7,50 m / 24'7"
Draft 1,26 m / 4'2"
Light displacement 11,720 kg / 25,800 lbs
Max displacement (EEC) 12,800 kg / 31,800 lbs
Dave

Light displacement of Lagoon 440 is 10.500 kg.

[catmando2]

Sorry, my mistake, it would appear I did a cut and past on the wrong specs, but still, 10,500 kg is still pretty heavy in my opinion, but it's a lot better than the 42

Dave