cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[catmando2]

Wow, Vega, your story makes me realise how lucky we are living in Australia.

Over here I am going to sink a mooring in the river out the front of one of our Central Queensland houses to park the boat on when in town. This will initially cost about $1500AUD or 906 euros, additional to this there is a fee of $37 AUD or 22 euros payable yearly. ALL THIS about 300 m from the CBD in a river full of mud crabs and barramundi.

Within a days motoring range there are hundred's of secure anchorages where we can park and not have a boat within sight and within 2 days motoring range there are spots where I havent seen a boat for weeks.

Most marinas on the Queensland coast charge around $50 AUD or 30 euros / day and $8500 AUD or 5135 euros /year for a 50 ft multihull berth.and don't mind if you anchor out and dinghy in to use the facilities.

This was one of the reasons for the cat, we can carry a 3.5 meter dinghy with a 10hp outboard to go exploring/ashore in. The only time we'll need a berth is every 3 months when refuelling, and firing up the still to make more Rum and Gin.

I could'nt possibly imagine paying the extortionate fees and putting up with the lack of space that you are subjected to, and I'm suprised so many Aussies seem keen to get there. Maybe they do the same as us.

Good luck with your search

Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by catmando2

Wow, Vega, your story makes me realise how lucky we are living in Australia.

Over here I am going to sink a mooring in the river out the front of one of our Central Queensland houses to park the boat on when in town. This will initially cost about $1500AUD or 906 euros, additional to this there is a fee of $37 AUD or 22 euros payable yearly. ALL THIS about 300 m from the CBD in a river full of mud crabs and barramundi.
....
I could'nt possibly imagine paying the extortionate fees and putting up with the lack of space that you are subjected to, and I'm suprised so many Aussies seem keen to get there. Maybe they do the same as us.

Yes, enjoy while you can.

In Europe there are too many people, too many boats.

Even huge marinas like les Minimes (+3000 places) have big waiting lists.

On other side, Europe is a fantastic place to cruise. There are incredible old ports, century old places with incredible ambiances that are a pleasure to explore. A big motorcat is just not the right boat to do that, or to own here, unless you are rich.

But I agree with you that a big motorcat is probably the most adequate motorboat to circumnavigate, or to voyage extensively.

[hiracer]

You are talking to the wrong guy. I'm the owner of a five-year old steel sailboat. I let somebody else take the hit on deprecitation.

I never said that the Nordic Tug was a good value. Just a good boat. I recognize the difference. Besides, you can find used Nordics at a better value, especially the smaller ones because they are out of favor right now, just like steel sailboats . . . .

And trust me about the darker hull. They look good.

* * *

BTY, last night I read a book by a retire geology professor at a prominent U.S. school stating that world oil production peaked last December 2005 and has now started decreasing--demand notwithstanding.

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Oil-Vie...oks/0809029561

Thought you motor guys might want to know.

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

Hi Hiracer, I could never see the sanity in wrapping up a quarter of a million bucks in 26 or 32 feet of plastic, ie., the Nordics. They are good boats, but over priced. When calculating the cost of ownership of a boat over a period of time, you have to take depreciation into consideration. Many of the new high end boats depreciate at 10% per year or more as well as 25% when you take ownership. I like quality in boats also, but to me quality is in solid maintenance of the vessel. We just bought an S2 30 footer (1981) in Annapolis and sailed her to Florda where she is undergoing a transfiguartion to a top notch cruising yacht with most of the work being done in-house, including skinning the bottom, applying two barrier coats and a coat of bottom paint. By doing the work on an older boat yourself, you KNOW that it's in good condition when you're off shore in nasty conditions rather than wondering if some yard monkey did this job or that job right. The additional advantage is in getting a good return on your investment when you sell the boat. Not to long ago We bought a Lazy Jack Schooner and totally upgraded it. The price was $36,000. When we sold her, she went for $62,000. I'd rather spend the money on things that I want rather than accepting whatever the new boat manufacturer has put in a boat and taking a beating when I buy it..

[FAST FRED]

"BTY, last night I read a book by a retire geology professor at a prominent U.S. school stating that world oil production peaked last December 2005 and has now started decreasing--demand notwithstanding."

Hope he lives for another 400 years , to see how WRONG he is.

FAST FRED

[Greenseas2]

Hi Fred. One never knows about that. One thing is for sure, there is a finite supply of oil in the earth. Once the OPEC countries run out of it, all that's left is sand and there's not a great demand for that product. Could be the professor has a little bit more knowledge on the supply than we do. I'm all for biodiesel that I can make in the garage, but we've gone around on that subject before.

[Kaa]

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

Hi Fred. One never knows about that. One thing is for sure, there is a finite supply of oil in the earth. Once the OPEC countries run out of it, all that's left is sand and there's not a great demand for that product.

Depends on the kind of sand :-) Once the price of oil stabilizes above a certain threshold (about $40-50/barrel, IIRC) it becomes economical to get oil out of tar sands and oil shale. And North America has a LOT of oil shale...

Kaa

[hiracer]

Originally Posted by Kaa

Depends on the kind of sand :-) Once the price of oil stabilizes above a certain threshold (about $40-50/barrel, IIRC) it becomes economical to get oil out of tar sands and oil shale. And North America has a LOT of oil shale...

Kaa

The book I referenced above states that is not so. The only viable replacement for oil are coal and nuclear and, of course, those two don't work too well for most transportation purposes, which is now accounts for about 75% of all oil use in the U.S., IRRC.

If I understand correctly oil shale, after it has been retorted (cooked to release the oil from the shale), results in a carbonized byproduct that is 20% greater in volume than the original shale. So, the issue become an environmental one of where to put the byproduct--as it doesn't fit back from where it came. In the best of oil shale, there is a small fraction of oil in every ton of shale. So, the problem is not a minor one, as we are talking about a massive amount of oil shale at today's level of oil use.

In otherwords, just as in the case of nuclear, the environmental costs and public opposition will be the problem regarding the viability of oil shale. We have in the U.S. enough oil shale to meet U.S. demand for a couple hundred years. It's the mess that it will make that stops everybody.

To give you an idea of the severity of the problem, at today's prices the value of oil in each ton of shale is MANY times greater than the value of gold in each ton of mined rock. Yet, they haven't been able to make oil shale commercially viable. Meanwhile, gold has been steadily produced.

Look at it this way, U.S. oil distribution facilities (pipes, pumps, and ships) and refinery have been at 100% capacity for decades. Yet, you don't see oil companies pushing Congress for subsidies or changes in laws to facilitate an increase in capacity. In fact, just the opposite. Congress has created tax subsidies and the oil businesses have not used them. Why do you think oil businesses are not pushing to increase distribution and refinery capacities? Maybe they know it's not gonna be used. I mean, Exxon, et al, really do know the oil business like nobody else. Watch what they do and ignore the rhetoric. Watch the money they invest. Where is it going?

I got the book from the library, so my read was free. Even if it's not at your liabrary, it's a small, inexpensive book. There is no harming in reading the thing. As you can see on Amazon, it has received high ratings from readers, and the author's first book was also well received. World oil supplies are sufficiently important that I really cannot advise a head-in-the-sand approach. Pun??

[hiracer]

One last thing and then I had better be quiet again--stop hijacking Vega's thread. (Sorry Vega, but I do think this is relevent to your motor/sail issue.)

First, this author claims that world oil production has been essentially flat since 1998, until last winter when it started decreasing. Anybody got an authority that this assessment is not true--the part about essentially flat production since 1998?

Second, he states that, on a per capital basis, world oil production peaked in 1979 (or was that in 1985--something like that--a while ago). Anybody know if that is false?

These trend lines don't look good, especially given the current industrialization of China, India, and large segments of the third world.

I'm an investor, and I am taking this information very seriously because I make it my habit to try to see around corners. The hair on the back of my investment neck is starting to stand up after digesting this book.

[Vega]

Hiracer, even if the actual oil production could be maintained, the heavy and quick industrialization of huge countries like China or India, will create more demand than the offer. I think that everybody know that the times of cheap energy are gone for good. From now on, fuel will always be on the rise, at least till the moment an economical alternative can be found. That can only be a high tech alternative and that means probably 25 years of development, till it matches the actual price of fuel.

[hiracer]

Originally Posted by Vega

I think that everybody know that . . . .

I disagree.

It's one thing to have supply not keep up with demand. That leads to price hikes. I just make/save more money and everything is alright. Oil goes to the highest bidder, which is me.

But it's an altogether different thing to have supply go down as demand rockets up. That leads to shortages. I may not be able to fix shortages with money.

I don't think anybody is thinking about rationing. That's the blindside here.

And to be clear, rationing is not a word found in the book. That's my word. That's my investor intuition coming out, looking around the corner, trying to firgure out what's up.

[Vega]

The third boat was not chosen by me, but by my wife. It is a Menorquin 120

She didn’t choose this one surfing the net or in boat shows. She fell in love with this one when seeing it on the sea and at the same coves in which we lay at anchor.

I have always assumed it was an expensive boat, till the moment my wife dragged me to a boat show stand, last year, in Düsseldorf. As I expected the boat was very well finished and with a good interior, and the price was a surprise. It costs 315 000 euros and this price puts it inside the budget. This is the only motorboat that I would like to own that comes inside of that budget and it pisses me off that my wife has chosen this one without hesitation while I was unable to find any cruising boat I would like to own that fits that budget .

Of course that also means that 40ft quality cruising motorboats are almost impossible to find for 350 000 euros. For example, another one that I like (with economical small engines) is the Andreyale 40 (120) but it costs 665 500 euros. With a price like that the economical engines are quite irrelevant.

http://www.tofinou.com/en/andreyale12.php

The Menorquin is another story; it is a seaworthy boat with 11.3T of displacement and with two 240hp Yanmar. It has a cruising speed of about 16 k. and a max speed a little bit over 20k. At cruising speed they say it wastes only 1.5 L/mile and that seems too good to be true. It carries 650 L of water and has autonomy of about 650 miles.

This one is a true cruising boat. The only draw back is a slightly small galley, if compared with the one of a sailboat of the same length, but anyway bigger than most of the motorboats of that size.

Yes, my wife is right; this is the one that I will pick, if I decide for a motorboat.



Next, I will see what quality cruising sailboats I can find with 350 000 euros, I mean the ones I really like as much as this one.


http://www.menorquin.com/en/my120.php?c=4

http://www.menorquin-croatia.com/m120.htm

[Crag Cay]

till the moment my wife dragged me to a boat show stand

Some men have all the luck!

[fcfc]

Originally Posted by Vega

Of course that also means that 40ft quality cruising motorboats are almost impossible to find for 350 000 euros. For example, another one that I like (with economical small engines) is the Andreyale 40 (120) but it costs 665 500 euros. With a price like that the economical engines are quite irrelevant.

http://www.tofinou.com/en/andreyale12.php

Are you sure you are not confusing the price of the andreyale 40 and 50 ?

ALso another rangeboat / andreyale 40 clone : http://www.cnsco-silure.com/Francais...Lovstar_40.htm
This one claimed CE category B here : http://users.skynet.be/p.balta/lovstar.html

Originally Posted by Vega

The Menorquin is another story; it is a seaworthy boat with 11.3T of displacement and with two 240hp Yanmar. It has a cruising speed of about 16 k. and a max speed a little bit over 20k. At cruising speed they say it wastes only 1.5 L/mile and that seems too good to be true. It carries 650 L of water and has autonomy of about 650 miles.

At 16 kts, the rangeboat is given at 1.2L/nm ( from the curve in N Irens paper). So, I fear the menorquin figures you got are strange for a boat more than twice heavier.

[Willallison]

Nimbus 42. Fast. Safe. Under 350,000 euros
I had a link and awhole lot more info - sorry - I left it at home...

[catmando2]

G'day fcfc, power to weight, and of course waterline length, that's what it's all about.

Love that lovstar 40, classic lines.

Now if only they could join 2 together!!! Only kidding

Don't think Vega will like it though, being strip plank, i'd suggest it's a custom not production boat?

Dave