cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[hiracer]

I went from motorboats to sailboats.

We started with camping out of a 19' aluminum boat. Carried the tent, sleeping bags, cooler, pots, pans, cooker, diapers, and tons of other stuff up 12' of Alaska tide lands every evening. It was OK with one kid, but when the second kid came along it got to be too much. My poor kids. My second one was camping a la the boat two weeks after birth.

Of course, that's not what any normal person thinks of when they say motorboat, but, hey, it's how we started--if you ignore the canoes.

My wife didn't want us to get a motorcruiser. She says I would go nuts if I didn't have some strings to pull every few moments. I suspect she is right. She personally could live without the sails, but she likes to see me busy (i.e., out of trouble).

Vega, I appreciate your comment about quality. I'm the same way. I would rather sacrifice size than quality. And, of course, beauty above all else. I have always said ugly boats should be sunk on sight, and I get to decide what's ugly.

If I ever got a motorcruiser I would get this one, which is made just up the road from me. They make'm bigger, but I like their smallest model the best.
They used to make a 27', but the market rejected it.

http://www.nordictugs.com/32.cfm?showNav=models

It looks better with a dark colored hull.

[Vega]

Finally I will post the results of the European search. I will look closely at three boats. One of them is the Sciallino 40.

Other boats, as the Beneteau Flyer, the Nimbus 380 and the ACM 38 could be considered (they come inside the budget). But simply I would not want any of those. The Beneteau for its global medium quality, the ACM and the Nimbus, just because I don’t find them beautiful enough (the ACM is ugly and I think the Nimbus will not resist the time passage and in some years will look dated).

The design of most motorboats, specially the ones that look modern now, will resist badly to time passage. Many will look ugly and dated in only 5 years.
That’s one of the reasons that led me to favor a classical, or a traditional approach.

The other is that I genuinely like boats that have a story and that are inspired by lines that have been proven and perfected for hundreds of years. These boats will look like new in 10 years time and those hulls, perfected for a long time, normally give very good and seaworthy boats.

The one I prefer is the Sciallino 40. Very good interior, very seaworthy boat and very nicely finished. Two problems: one, the consumption, the other, the initial price.

The boat makes at 18k, 3L/mile, and that it is not bad, considering that it is a heavy boat (13.5T) with big engines (2x370hp). The boat can reach close to 30k and smaller engines would not be more economical (regarding fuel) unless displacement speeds were considered (and that is out of question).

The boat costs 450 000euros without VAT, or about 550 000 all included, and that’s a pity, because it is quite a boat. Compared with some of the Americans it doesn’t seem too expensive….but anyway far away from my budget (350 000 euros). This one will not fit, but I really like it a lot .

http://www.nautica.it/boatshow/sciallin/40.htm

[Greenseas2]

Hi Hiracer, I could never see the sanity in wrapping up a quarter of a million bucks in 26 or 32 feet of plastic, ie., the Nordics. They are good boats, but over priced. When calculating the cost of ownership of a boat over a period of time, you have to take depreciation into consideration. Many of the new high end boats depreciate at 10% per year or more as well as 25% when you take ownership. I like quality in boats also, but to me quality is in solid maintenance of the vessel. We just bought an S2 30 footer (1981) in Annapolis and sailed her to Florda where she is undergoing a transfiguartion to a top notch cruising yacht with most of the work being done in-house, including skinning the bottom, applying two barrier coats and a coat of bottom paint. By doing the work on an older boat yourself, you KNOW that it's in good condition when you're off shore in nasty conditions rather than wondering if some yard monkey did this job or that job right. The additional advantage is in getting a good return on your investment when you sell the boat. Not to long ago We bought a Lazy Jack Schooner and totally upgraded it. The price was $36,000. When we sold her, she went for $62,000. I'd rather spend the money on things that I want rather than accepting whatever the new boat manufacturer has put in a boat and taking a beating when I buy it..

[catmando2]

Have to say I agree with Green seas2 on this , it's like buying a new car and losing a vast % just by driving it out the door. A lot of you seem to think that because a boat is built by a company that spend heaps on advertising, well it must be good, it say's so in the brochure, and of course all those articles in magazines are unbiased......I think not. No one on the workshop floor in a boatbuilding yard doing the grunt work makes big money, what do they say,"Pay peanuts,Get monkeys" . sure the work is done to a "satisfactory standard" but that ain't my standard, and as i've said on a previous post, some of us don't need to hide sloppy work behind a facade of timber panneling and cloth.

Hiracer, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, the lines on the Nordic tug don't do it for me, but as you said, you get to decide whats ugly.
Economy.....well realisicaly the 42 footer would be a livaboard for doing ocean trips on,in my opinion, but geez, is 1100 n/m on 600g with a 540 hp motor economy? Not to me it 'aint.

And Vega...........How can you keep going on with this unrealistic argument?
How is a heavy, short hulled, overpowered , 20+knot powerboat possibly going to compare in efficiency to a sailboat.???
I'm sure the most basic of designers will tell you thet when you get over that 12 knot hump that fuel cost start going up and efficiency goes down.

Why do you think all of the record setting fuel economy boats are long, thin , light, and low powered???
Surely by now you would realize that the only way you can make the comparison stack up is to learn from these boat's and have a long,light low powered multihull or something along the lines of the Dashews "Unsaila-boat". WATERLINE IS EVERYTHING.

Time for a big dose of reality me thinks. What your looking for I don't feel is achievable, but if you reckon it is , well time to "put your money where your mouth is" and prove me and others wrong.

Good luck, I think you'll need it.

Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by catmando2

How is a heavy, short hulled, overpowered , 20+knot powerboat possibly going to compare in efficiency to a sailboat.???
I'm sure the most basic of designers will tell you thet when you get over that 12 knot hump that fuel cost start going up and efficiency goes down.

Why do you think all of the record setting fuel economy boats are long, thin , light, and low powered???

I guess you have not read the full thread. Personally I will not have a motorboat if that boat is not a lot faster than a sailing boat. A slow motorboat is boring, at least for me, and for the vast majority of motor boaters. That's why the market offers almost no choice regarding economical motorboats, and their numbers ate meaningless.

They are uninteresting, motor boaters don't want them.

Buying a motorboat instead of a sailboat, is choosing a completely different set of conditions and life style. Not worse or better, just different.

Narrow boats with small engines are a rarity in the market and for a good reason. You need a really a long one to have the interior space of the Sciallino 40 and they need to be very long to have a comparable seaworthiness. When at anchor they roll a lot and will pay huge money at the marinas (length). Their initial price, for a comparable interior space, will be also a higher than a traditional design like the Sciallino.

As I have stated many times in this thread, I am only interested in comparing existing production boats. It's the only way you can run a fair comparison. If some significant number of people wants a certain type of boat, you will find it onthe market. If you can not find it, it means that it is not the right type. People know what they want, and they just don’t want that one.

[ron17571]

Ive read all the threads,i guess it depends on money,how much are u willing to pay?how much money can u live with spending on fuel,the powerboat magazines ive read,people talk about buying thousands of gallons of fuel like its no big deal.

[catmando2]

Vega,Vega ,Vega,...I think you'll find that the average wally that wants to out do his mates on the marina goes for the "Scialliano 40", obviously so, as the marina's full of them.

But the long term cruisers don't necesseraly want a gas guzzler with systems that can cause problems on the wobbly stuff. You rarely see this style of boat as they are actually out there being used, and most of us don't give a toss if the masses like 'em or not. We don't need some interior decorator or marketing guy telling us what we should have in our boat, unless of coarse they have done the miles to prove the systems and the design works. If your only playing,and after a shiny toy, get your Scialliano.

Also Vega ,a light , long composite boat takes a bit more skill to build than popping one out of a mould after hosing it with a chopper gun, same skills as used in fiberglass swimming pool manufacture, but it's cheap and fast and you just put in a bigger motor and you foot the bill for exessive fuel use.

Not all motor boaters want these flash gas guzzlers, the smart ones are after efficiency and range.

As I said before, " put your money where your mouth is " and buy your Sciallano and see if you have a win on the ecconomy stakes.

Have fun

Dave

[catmando2]

Some pics of Australian and New Zealand cats with 100 hp x2 or less that get between 10 to 20 kn depending on hp

[catmando2]

pic one has had 2 x 75 hp governed, in the charter version [ Schionning design ]

pic two has 2 x 100 hp and gets 20 knots [Tennant design ]

pic three I believe has had 2 x 65 hp [ Brady design/Leopard cats ]

pic four has had 2 x 75 hp governed, in charter version [scimitar marine]

pic five has twin 200hp and does over 25 kn but woul work well at a lower hp with a slower speed similar to pic two.[Ron Given design]

And the last pic here is of a Schionning prowler that we followed up the QLD coast. She is strip cedar /epoxy composite and has 2 x 56 hp yanmars and cruises at ten and gets ahout 13kn on the fly using 1 litre / nautical mile, not bad !!

This was the one that finally conviced me that an economic power cat was possible.

Enjoy

Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by catmando2

Vega,Vega ,Vega,...I think you'll find that the average wally that wants to out do his mates on the marina goes for the "Scialliano 40", obviously so, as the marina's full of them.

Obviously not. The Sciallino is not a fast boat. It's a heavy and seaworthy boat, a cruising boat. The ones that want to "out do his mates" will buy light and powerful boats, like the Bavarias, that will go a lot faster for a lot less of money.

Of course, I consider Cats as a very valid option in what concerns cruising motorboats. With an adequate motorization they can cruise at the kind of cruising speeds I find fit for a motorboat (between 15 and 20K). They can also be very seaworthy boats, even if a bit uncomfortable and have lots of interior space.

Unfortunately I live in Europe and I want to cruise mainly here, and European Marinas are expensive and they are full. Many of them are old (the nicest) and simply don’t have space for cats and when they have, the place will cost 1,5X to 2X more than a similar sized boat.

So for me, cats are out (and I am not even looking at prices), but of course this in my case.

Regards

[catmando2]

I understand, but consider this.The number 2 Tennant design pic has 2 x 100 hp and gets 20 knots of boat speed

Your Sciallino has 2 x 423 hp and probably does similar speeds. I couldn't find speed or range on the site.

Your saving in fuel dollars would be considerable on the cat and would probably more than offset the cost of your marina berth.

The cat would have a better range as it has smaller engines due to more efficient design.

Seeing as the cat was much cheaper to run , you would probably use it a lot more and not be in a marina as often.

The girls like them more, your friends like them more , the environment likes them more and the diesel sellers don't.

I notice you say you want to spend around 350,000 euros or approx $580,000 AUD. I think you could get most of the boats i'm talking about for that sort of money, mind you ,they'd be second hand, but I found some sciallino 40s second hand for the same money.

Should I continue

Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by ron17571

Ive read all the threads,i guess it depends on money,how much are u willing to pay?how much money can u live with spending on fuel,the powerboat magazines ive read,people talk about buying thousands of gallons of fuel like its no big deal.

Ron, yes of course, it will depends on money, but in many cases, not in the money you will waste in fuel, but on the money you spend in the initial cost of the boat. We have seen that in many cases, the money you waste in fuel is a small fraction of the boat price.

There is many ways of cruising and the truth is that most cruisers don't make large mileages, and that doesn't mean that they don't cruise a lot.

There are many cruising grounds were you can cruise extensively and stay at anchor in many beautiful places without doing a lot of miles. These grounds are also full of interesting small Ports and Marinas. The Caribbean, the Balearic Islands, the Galician Rias, The Baltic Sea and Turkish and Greek coasts and Islands, not to mention Croatia, are just some examples.

Of course if you want to circumnavigate, I would say that a sailboat is the obvious choice (unless you are very rich) but if you only want to enjoy life and cruise around in "your" cruising ground (and that's what most cruisers do), then, considering the quality of life we are talking about, the initial price of the boat is the real cost. Other costs, including fuel costs, will be almost meaningless.

regards

[Vega]

Originally Posted by catmando2

...
Your saving in fuel dollars would be considerable on the cat and would probably more than offset the cost of your marina berth.


....I notice you say you want to spend around 350,000 euros or approx $580,000 AUD. I think you could get most of the boats i'm talking about for that sort of money, mind you ,they'd be second hand, but I found some sciallino 40s second hand for the same money.

Should I continue

Dave

I don’t know if you want to continue or not, but I know that the Cats that you have posted cost new a lot more than the Sciallino 40. If those boats (from the same year) cost the same in the used market as the Sciallino, that only means that the Sciallino holds a very high resale value (lots of people searching for them) while the cats you are talking about rapidly lose its value (few people looking for them).

Anyway I have said that I am only interested in Market production new boats, and I don’t have the money for a Sciallino, much less for one of those cats.

About Marinas, don’t forget that we are talking now about quality of life, quality boats and quality Marinas. We have already talked about low budget cruising boats, and regarding those ones, you simply don’t have any cruising motorboat (with the same interior space) for the price of a cheep cruising sailboat (Oceanis 40ft).

So, we are not talking here of putting the boat in some forsaken place in the middle of fishing trawlers or in an ugly place. If you have the money for a quality boat, you will want a quality marina, so let’s take a look at the annual prices in a nice Marina.

Considering that you have said about your boat : “It's a fifty foot cat, but has the same amount of accomadation as most 40 footers”, lets compare its annual berth cost with the Sciallino in a good Portuguese Marina, the Marina de Lagos, a popular one among European cruisers.

This Marina is full of foreign boats, boats that stay all year around, with some few people living aboard all year, the vast majority come only in the summer. It is a very protected Marina, in the center of Lagos, an old and very nice city.

For the Sciallino (11,85m) you pay 4938 euros for a year.

For your boat (50ft Cat), you will pay 14 907 euros a year.

That is almost a 10 000 euros difference. Of course this is in a special full year contract, because if we compare day prices in summer the difference will be proportionally a lot bigger: Sciallino – 33 euros a day, 50ft cat- 143 euros a day (that’s because in high season berths will cost 100% more, not 50%, regarding a monohull with the same length).

And, regarding prices of quality Marinas in quality places, these are not properly very expensive prices. If you want to leave your boat in the cruising grounds, and want it to stay at the Balearic Islands, Corsica or Sardinia, prices will be a lot higher, in some cases about the double.

But that is not the worst. The worst is that, no matter the price, it would be very difficult (and many times impossible) to find a berth place for a 50ft cat, and all the most traditional and virtually all nice small charismatic ports will be out of reach.

Anyway, if we consider the Marina de Lagos prices, for a 10 year period, the difference in marina costs will be of around 100 000 euros. That’s a lot of fuel, much more than the average motorcruiser will waste in 10 years, and I am not even considering the difference in fuel cost between your boat and the Sciallino, but the total fuel costs.

cheers

[ron17571]

I guess being less blessed than others i couldnt deal with the using of so much fuel,i could see a motor sailer with a small engine and a steadying sail,i guess my thing is that im not in a big hurry,i like the peace of sailing also.i dont think hanging out where everyone else is,would be my cup of tea,marina fees and such,reminds me of folks here with big motorhomes staying in rv parks.its up to individuall taste.

[Vega]

The second boat I have retained is also a very nice one. It is even more beautiful than the Sciallino.

It’s also a kind of traditional boat, but curiously that tradition comes not from Europe, but from the USA. The Liberty 40, made in Turkey by EGEMAR YACHTS LTD is on the line of some of the American boats that I have posted on post 279 and it is a GRP Sandwich Hull with a Wooden Sandwich Superstructure.

Compared with the American boats, this one is not only less expensive, but, having a closed upper deck, it offers a lot more useful space for cruising and living aboard.

The boat seems to be very well finished. Compared with the Sciallino, it is a much lighter and narrow boat (and less seaworthy), displacing 9T and with two 260 hp engines (or two 370 hp as an option).

The boat can make 25k with the standard engines and +30k with the optional ones.

The standard ones seem alright to me. They say that the boat will waste 100L/h at the cruising speed of 25k. But I guess that they are talking of the 370hps engines.

For the smaller engines, the economical cruising speed should be around 18 or 20 knots wasting about 3.5L/mile. That’s not bad for this kind of boat.

This shows that the heavier Sciallino (a semi-displacement hull), nevertheless its more powerful engines, wastes less fuel (for mile) at cruising speed, than Liberty 40 (planning hull), but of course, the cruising speed of this one is 3 or 4 knots higher.

This boat with all the taxes will cost about 430 000 euros. 80 000 euros out of budget, but it is a lot closer to the Sciallino price.

80 000 euros at the very high price diesel costs here, is enough for 27 000 miles…that’s a lot.

The only real drawback (besides being out of budget) is that this is strictly a fair weather boat. The Sciallino can take a lot more beating than this one.

Well that would not be a real problem, just a limitation that I would have to accept, and plan the voyages with the right weather forecast.

The money is the real problem. It is not enough, even if I find that this is a very beautiful boat, a boat that would be a pleasure to own and a lot of boat (quality) for the money.

http://www.egemar.com.tr/