cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[hiracer]

An aside:

We just got a permanent slip at our marina of choosing, despite being forteenth on the waiting list. Why? Because our boat was the only one narrow enough fit into the slip. It is in the older part of the marina and the slips are too narrow for most modern boats.

While this doesn't translate directly to cruising, it illustrates that different parameters become important in different areas. Image if a cruiser came into that marina in the summer, a nice wide Catalina, and the marina says, sorrry, get lost. You don't fit. You have anchor outside and dinghy in.

I imagine that there are ports in the world where a few extra feet, width or length, will either cost lots more money to visit, or even prohibit the abilitiy to visit.

I'm unconvinced the thread's questio can be answered generically. Too many variables.

[hiracer]

Originally Posted by Vega

For both of us, on the long run, the cruising ability and the living space (quality of life) are the most important.

Regarding your situation, Vega, if one assumes that your budget is sufficient for either sail or motor cruising, then what you have before you is not really a financial question. Put your calculator away.

On the other hand, and assuming that your budget is adequate but tight, if during your cruising days war in the middle east breaks out on a wholesale level and results in, not just destruction of distribution lines but also, destruction of oil production infastructure, I would guess that your cruising days in a motor cruiser would be over unless you increase your operating budget by maybe a decimal point. And, in that case, I think you will find that the market will have discounted the resale value of your motor cruiser considerably.

From a risk standpoint, I would eliminate motor boat cruising for that simple reason alone. But I am biased, for sure, and some would say a pessimist too. I like to think I'm a realist accounting for all risks.

[FAST FRED]

Fuel isnt that expensive , considering Overnite can run $3.00 per ft per night.

A 40 ft overnight dock for a mere $120 !! plus tax.

For my syle of cruising , its Anchor time.

At least a dozen US East coast intercostal water way trips , with never a dock fee.

If oil remains above $40 bbl the world of alternate supply finally opens.

Synfuel from coal or gas is only a $30 bbl (plus a 2 billion down payment on the required refinerys) and of course fuel from shale oil added gives close to an 800 year supply.

The USAF is currently running B52 synfuel tests with great results.
Quite clean , good at low temperatures.
The military is very excited as ONE fuel could replace the many now in use. A militaries logistic delight when we switch.

FAST FRED

[hiracer]

Yes but will you be able get that alternate fuel out in the boonies, where some of us want to go cruising? The east coast of the U.S. is a pretty civilized version of cruising grounds. I hear they even have marinas if you have the money. In contrast to my days of cruising Kenai Fjords National Park (Alaska). Cruising is in the eye of the beholder.

Not to mention the lead time before this syn fuel is really available (years?). Relating to my middle east scenario above, there will be rationing of petro fuel while we in the U.S. await the ramp up of syn fuel production.

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

Fuel isnt that expensive , considering Overnite can run $3.00 per ft per night.

A 40 ft overnight dock for a mere $120 !! plus tax.

For my syle of cruising , its Anchor time.

At least a dozen US East coast intercostal water way trips , with never a dock fee.

If oil remains above $40 bbl the world of alternate supply finally opens.

Synfuel from coal or gas is only a $30 bbl (plus a 2 billion down payment on the required refinerys) and of course fuel from shale oil added gives close to an 800 year supply.

The USAF is currently running B52 synfuel tests with great results.
Quite clean , good at low temperatures.
The military is very excited as ONE fuel could replace the many now in use. A militaries logistic delight when we switch.

FAST FRED

[FAST FRED]

"Yes but will you be able get that alternate fuel out in the boonies, where some of us want to go cruising?"

Doesn't matter , the ratio of fuel avilable vs the world drawdown (and speculating hedge funds) sets the price.

American Air uses 3.2 billion gal a year , United almost the same , when the commercial operator demand is switched to a different supply , the quantity the no longer use will lower the world price of fuel (before the local Tax Man).

The Saudis used to drive the crude price below $20 every so often to terrorize the syn fuel industry , and alternate energy folks.

99c a gallon gas was only a couple of years ago, and may yet return.

FAST FRED

[hiracer]

But my scenario is a serious hiccup in supply before syn fuel production is able to ramp up. The resulting rationing will mean no world cruising in a motor cruiser for probably several years. I'm fearing availability issues in lots of areas, regardless of price.

Imagine being in the South Pacific with typhon season breathing down your neck when supply gets interrupted and you can't get enough fuel to get out of the belt. And your insurer has made clear that you are not covered if you are not out by such and such a date.

Or maybe you are safe in New Zealand, but they refuse to sell the amount of fuel needed to get out of Dodge because of their self-interested nationalized fuel rationing.

Further, if some major fields are taken out by nuclear weapons, because of radiation those fields ain't going back into production soon. It's not a case of rebuilding in a year or two.

If you are poor and backwards, and you want the rest of the world to be just like you, what better way than a concerted attack on world oil supplies? Or maybe it's an Arab versus Persian thing, with lots of nuclear collateral damage. Whatever.

Given the ease of a major interruption of fuel supply, the increasing sophistication of terrorists and rogue states, and the proliferation of nuclear weapons, banking on world fuel supplies is not the sure bet it used to be, IMO. I agree interruption is not a certainty, but it gives me something to think about, something I would prefer not to think about. Syn fuel production to fill the gap is way too far downstream to serve as an immediate fix.

By the time I go cruising, I'll be retired, too old to wait for all this to blow over. It's go then, or don't go. I may have to adjust where I go, but I don't want the risk of having to conclude I can't go at all.

If you want to make the case that I'm building a straw-man argument, well, I can't defend because I've brought up future, unrealized events. I think I'm just managing risk, pure and simple. We may have to agree to disagree on the level of risk that I have brought up. But since I LIKE sailboats, it's much easier for me to check off that risk as "managed."

Let me put it this way: If I am truly ambivalent about sailing versus motor cruising, and perhaps I think world fuel supply risk is not a deciding factor (depending on one's assessment of the risk), I certainly can't just ignore the risk. Frankly, the discounted resale value is the risk that would worry me the most because I'm congenitally cheap. It would not take a big fuel supply interruption, just a healthly price increase, to undercut the price of used motor cruisers. THAT would keep me up at night even if it never happens, but that's just me. I'm a worry wart. My boat is a 5 year-old high-end custom steel sailboat, where I let somebody else take the depreciation hit. I prefer to be on the beneficial end of depreciation.

And for the record, I don't think we will ever see 99 cent fuel again, ever. When I started driving cars, gasoline was 34 cents a gallon. I haven't seen that since. And never will.

But it's a free world, and certainly other people are entitled to their own tolerance for risk. I'm in a steel sailboat, which I guess says a lot about me.

[hiracer]

I'll be quiet now, promise.

[catmando2]

Hi Vega and thanks for the compliments.
Wish I had the money to buy her, a German couple had come out and brought her for a holiday and threw a bit of money at her and sold her cheap when they left. Good buy for someone who was cashed up on the day.

I think she's in NZ waters now.

Dave

PS, think i'd better go and crawl into my concrete bunker instead of building a powercat, apparently the bombs are on there way.

[FAST FRED]

"PS, think i'd better go and crawl into my concrete bunker instead of building a powercat, apparently the bombs are on there way."

Won't help a bit , todays bomber is a bought to die , unwanted 15 year old kid with C4 strapped to his body, happy to crawl into your bunker. At $25,000 a unit there 20X cheaper than a missle. And missels have addresses.

All that oil money has to buy something...

FAST FRED

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Willallison

I for instance would be unlikely to consider a sailboat, regardless of where I was going to cruise. I've been brought up with powerboats all my life - I like 'em And whilst I agree that there are many who (particularly as they grow older) consider the switch from sail to power, I'm not so sure there are that many who go the other way....

Yes, you are probably too old and lazy for it . Seriously, I have several friends who have gone from motorboats to sailboats.

It is true that it is more difficult to change from a motorboat to a sailboat, simply because the motorboat is easier and demands less knowledge to operate. On the other hand, the sailboat takes care of your health, because it provides you with the right quantity of exercise, while in a motorboat you grow a big unhealthy belly .

Originally Posted by Willallison

It's also perhpas timely to point out that this thread was started as a result of a comment I made elsewhere - that it is not necessarily less expensive to buy, own and operate a sailboat than a powerboat. This has been demonstrated on a number of different occaisions throughout the thread. It will always be difficult to sensibly compare powerboats to sailboats as they tend to be so inherintly different. And of course, as Vega has chosen to narrow the search (quite within his rights, as he started it afterall) to boats capable of liveaboard / ocean crossing, it is always going to be easier to find example sailboats than power as there are so many more of them.

Hum… not precisely. This thread is about budget cruising, so it is clear that we are talking of cruising boats and cruising boats should be fit to live aboard for some time.

What was made clear is that, for the average cruiser (that cruise around one month a year), the initial cost of the boat is the biggest cost, and considering really budget cruising, for the price of a 40ft Oceanis, you only buy half of a cruising motorboat, and I am not talking about an Oceangoing motorboat, but any cruising motorboat with the same interior space. So regarding budget cruising, a budget sailboat is cheaper.

As the motorboats have normally a better quality than an inexpensive sailboat, I am in the process of seeing if for 350 000euros it is possible to have a nice cruising motorboat and compare it with the sailboat that I can have with the same money.

And Will, I have already said that if I choose a motorboat, for that price, I can only have a coastal motorboat (and therefore I can only make coastal cruising) and for that price the sailboat will be a passagemaker. But that will not be a problem if I only want to do coastal cruising .

[Vega]

Originally Posted by hiracer

Regarding your situation, Vega, if one assumes that your budget is sufficient for either sail or motor cruising, then what you have before you is not really a financial question.

I don't know that yet.

I want a quality boat.

My wife prefers a motorboat, I prefer a sailboat, but neither of us is closed to any of the options.

I have already see that on the American market I can not find for 350 000euros an adequate motorboat, I mean around 15knots of cruising speed, economical on fuel and beautiful. I can find them, but they cost a lot more

See post nº279.

I have already seen that I can find better options in Europe (to my taste and money).

I will post about it soon.

[Greenseas2]

Hi Vega, back again. Over the years I've owned several boats, both sail and power in the 30 foot to 40 foot class and have cruised many thousands of miles. The latest cruise was from New York to Florida for a distance of about 1,200 miles. The trip was made in a 30 foot S2 center cockpit sloop that has a Yanmar diesel. Combined motoring and sailing, she only used $28 in fuel for the entire trip and the engine was turning over most of the time. Conversely, the 34 foot mainship that we just sold had tankage of 220 gallons of diesel. Mainships are fairly economical with their 140 hp naturally aspirated engines, but we burned 200+ gallons of fuel just crossing Florida on the Okeechobee waterway, a distance of about 150 miles. Both boats had clean bottoms and tuned engines. At the cost of fuel today, which would you rather cruise in...power or sail?

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Ari

Vega,
After following this thread from the very beginning, ... I'm very pleased that I had followed this thread flow, it is really contributing for my own purpose...

I am glad that you found this rambling of mine useful.

[catmando2]

Hi Greenseas2, did your 34 ft Mainship get around 1 n/m to the litre, if not it's not that economical, and how much did your mast,rigging,sails and winches etc cost ? I'd reckon it'd buy a bit of diesel.

I could use the same argument on my last sailing cat, did a 2200n/m return trip and only used about 60 litres of unleaded, but would have done about $1000 worth of wear and tear on all the sails, fittings and rig. But if I had to buy all that gear off the shelf again it would cost around $35,000

Dave

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Greenseas2

Hi Vega, back again. Over the years I've owned several boats, both sail and power in the 30 foot to 40 foot class and have cruised many thousands of miles.

. Mainships are fairly economical with their 140 hp naturally aspirated engines, but we burned 200+ gallons of fuel just crossing Florida on the Okeechobee waterway, a distance of about 150 miles. Both boats had clean bottoms and tuned engines. At the cost of fuel today, which would you rather cruise in...power or sail?

Hey Greenseas, happy to see that I am not the only one that likes motorboats and sailboats.

Problem is that if I choose a motorboat I will not want one that goes at almost the same speed of a sailboat, so I will want something that can make +20k and that will cruise comfortably at 15/16k. I am talking about an express cruiser, and those are a lot more expensive to buy and to maintain.

If you do that trip of yours once a year, the fuel price will not be a problem compared to the initial cost of the boat (except psychologically...I agree that is hard to see money burned like that).

But if you are retired and do trips like that several times a year, that's a completely different ball game. The price of fuel will limit your dreams and the real possibilities of traveling extensively.