cruising costs, maintenance and price of the boat (sailboats versus motorboats)

[fcfc]

For a set of sails with 65 m2 - 7000 Euros. For maintenance of the rig for 10 years – 1500 euros and the complete substitution of the rig after 20 years.

And for the sails, the sturier is more than twice heavier than an Oceanis. The rig will be more expensive than an Oceanis, even if area smaller.

If you compare Sturier maintenance vs Oceanis maintenance, the sturier engine maintenance will costs less, being a true commercial fishing engine instead of a volvo automotive adapted engine wich the D2 is, and the sail and rig will cost more because the boat is truly heavier.

[Vega]

Hum, I had a look at the Caterpillar link regarding the 3056 engine.

As you can see, it is the only that is only C class engine (For vessels operating at rated load and rated speed up to 50% of the time with cyclical load and speed -20% to 80%- load factor). All the others are Class A and B.

So, I think that this engine is in between the other Caterpillar and the Volvo-Penta engines, regarding maintenance and life expectancy.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by fcfc

And for the sails, the sturier is more than twice heavier than an Oceanis. The rig will be more expensive than an Oceanis, even if area smaller.

If you compare Sturier maintenance vs Oceanis maintenance, the sturier engine maintenance will costs less, being a true commercial fishing engine instead of a volvo automotive adapted engine wich the D2 is, and the sail and rig will cost more because the boat is truly heavier.

I don't agree about the rig, I agree about the engine. See my previous post.

About the rig cost, it is not a problem because I am not comparing with the Oceanis, but I am comparing the price of two versions of the same boat, the Sturier 40. One is a motorboat, the other is a motorsailor, and I have the price of the Sturier rig and sails (that's the difference in price between the two versions).

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Willallison

That looks like being an interesting comparison Vega.
For the motorsailer, what proportion of the distance travelled will you have as being under power and under sail?

Yes. of course. I have thought about that but I didn't post it.

Based on my sailing experience I will go with this proportion:

Sailing 1/6 of the time (this one really needs wind, probably around 15knots, to be used as a sail boat)

Motorsailing 2/6 of the time (here I am not considering all the time, but the conditions that generate a 50% decrease in fuel consumption)

Motoring 3/6 of the time.

[fcfc]

Originally Posted by Vega

Thanks. Please see if you can have the price of the cat 3056 ans post the Caterpillar link regarding maintenance.

I agree, that there is a diference in the type of engines and that the numbers I am using are the ones for the wrong type (Volvo-Penta/yanmar).

But 20 000 hours seems to me a lot. In used boats adds, regarding boats with those engines I had never seen one of a boat with an engine with more than 10 000 hours.

There is no much, except the oil change interval:
http://www.cat.com/cda/components/se...2&languageId=7

Theses engines are rated for 2000 - 4000 hours year use. So 20 000 hours is only 5 - 10 years of uses in such applications. Note that if you motor 200 days a year, and 8 hours a day, you will only reach 1600 hours at the end of the year.

If you want to see high hours, you need to see professional side : http://www.depco.com/marine_engines/...e.asp?ID=10277 this engine is to be rebuilt.It had 24 550 hours.

This 11 454 hours engine is rated as good/used. http://www.depco.com/marine_engines/...e.asp?ID=10286

You do not see so many hours in used leisure boats because they never sail so long so many years and not all have commercial rated engines.
The Recreational Craft Directive says :
"The normal life of the engine is considered to mean:
inboard or stern drive engines with or without integral exhaust: 480 hours or 10 years, whichever occurs first;
personal watercraft engines: 350 hours or 5 years, whichever occurs first;
outboard engines: 350 hours or 10 years, whichever occurs first."

I think you will find the biggest engine hours on Grand Banks. But 30 years of use at 300 hours a year only make 9000 hours, which is very heavy leisure use.
And such engine will probably dyie from corrosion , electrolisys and rot before reaching its mechanical life end.

[Russ]

This is a great discussion!
I can add a couple of things. At LaCeiba shipyard I have repaired many boats. 30 to 60 ft monohull sail, Private motor yachts 40 to 70 ft and careing for the 35 boat fleet of Moorings Charter Catamarans which you have neglected to include in this discussions. Large Commercial Fishing, shrimper, Lobster boats dont count.
The big thing to consider is the hundreds of little things that can and DO go wrong. Stays, Pullies, cables, sails, mast support, rotting deck core, Teak deck splitting and coming loose, ropes, plexiglass hatches cracking, oh yes we must'nt forget the damage to the keel, shaft, prop and rudder when you happen to go bouncing up on a reef. The list goes on. The sun kills the caulking and you get water leaks that are very elusive, thruhulls, Cutlas Bearings, OMG do you still want a boat?
I agree that a sailing craft costs more to maintain because there are more things to go wrong.
What I am saying is that if you love being on the water in a hole in the ocean into which you throw money, be prepared to do just that.
For real comfort and ease of sailing do not leave out the Catamarans. They are light, not so much draft and provide the space of a Motor Yacht and the sailability of a monohull sailcraft, only faster. I did a bit of work on a 42 foot cat that was powered by 2- 40 horse outboards. It was very nice.
Oh well, just some more to think about, Russ

[Vega]

Welcome to the discussion Russ.

Well I know, I have a boat

But I believe that charter boats give you a lot more work than the ones that are owned by sailors. I do some cruising and I have seen the way charter boats are used, most of the time by people who know very little about boats and just don't care. And the kind of people that charter Cats looks even worse than the ones who charter monohulls.

About Cats, I didn't exclude them, if you want you can take care of that, I mean posting some models to chose one to compare. Around here (in Europe and particularly in the Med), owning a cat is a problem. Marina costs are 1,5 to 2 times more than the price for a boat of the same length and even so, you can not find a place for them.

[FAST FRED]

"I think you will find the biggest engine hours on Grand Banks. But 30 years of use at 300 hours a year only make 9000 hours, which is very heavy leisure use.
And such engine will probably dyie from corrosion , electrolisys and rot before reaching its mechanical life end.'

Most of the engines I have replaced were not due to running hours , but due to sitting idle for endless months , or even years!

EVERY single mfg. will have a service recomendation for preserving an "out of service " engine.
So far I have never seen a private owner bother with this requirement.

It is expensive to do the out of service routine , oil change , special oil in injector system and intake and exhausts capped (in general) .

But its lots MORE expensive to remove the rust from unprotected cylinder walls , by replacing the cylinders!

FAST FRED

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Vega

The sturier 40, besides being a nice boat, is an interesting boat to this comparison.

That model has a motorsailor version, so it makes things easy.
Let’s begin this comparison with a sturdy heavy motorsailor (the Sturier 40 with sails) against the same boat without sails.

This will show how a heavy traditional kind of motorsail compares, regarding economy, with the same boat without a rig.

Technical characteristics:

MOTORBOAT

Hull Length – 12 M Displ. – 16 T Engine – 100kw Cruising speed 7,5k Price 378 000 euros (cons 20% VAT)

MOTORSAILOR

The same plus a Ketch rig with 65m2 Price 414 000 euros

For this comparison I will consider as price of Diesel 1L=1Euro (here it costs 1,14/L)

I will consider the initial cost of the boats, the resale value after 10 years

http://www.sturier.com/

First results:

For an average cruising of 375miles/year during 10 years, all considered, the difference will be of 20 084 euros towards the motorboat.

Even not considering the initial difference in price (and resale value), and only considering operating costs, the Motorsailor will cost more 8564 euros to operate.



For an average cruising of 1500miles/year during 10 years, all considered, the difference will be of 9 226 euros towards the motorboat.

Not considering the initial difference in price (and resale value), and only considering operating costs, the Motorsailor will cost less 2306 euros to operate.



For an average cruising of 3000miles/year during 10 years, all considered, the difference will be of 2 500 euros towards the Motorsailor.

Not considering the initial difference in price (and resale value), and only considering operating costs, the Motorsailor will cost less 14020 euros to operate.


For an average cruising of 6000miles/year during 10 years, all considered, the difference will be of 25 011 euros towards the Motorsailor.

Not considering the initial difference in price (and resale value), and only considering operating costs, the Motorsailor will cost less 36 531 euros to operate.

[Guillermo]

With all respect let me tell you I find this discussion quite futile. I've calculated how much it costs me every mackerel I fish and the figure goes up to 30 Euros a piece. And this only taking in account operational costs!
Recreational boating is a very bad business....

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

With all respect let me tell you I find this discussion quite futile.

Yes of course, for rich guys like you this is meaningless , for the others who want to know what kind of boat is less expensive to own and operate while cruising, it makes a lot of sense

[SheetWise]

Guillermo -

30 Euros each! That's not such a bad deal. I've spent more per pound in an effort to raise tilapia in the desert. Not only do you get a boat out of the deal -- mackerel is better eating.

[Vega]

Conclusions about the comparison:

Considering only the loss of boat value, the cost of owning the a new Sturier, during 10 years is of 133 760 Euros for the Motorsailor and 121 950 for the motorboat (considering a depreciation of 68%).
Those numbers make the difference of about 20 000 euros between the total cost of owning the two boats almost meaningless (to one side, or another, I mean, motorsailor or motorboat, depending on cruising milleage/year).

But this will not be the case if you buy a 15 year old Sturier and do the same calculations.

Let’s assume that such a boat will cost 175 000 euros and that, well maintained, it will have a value of 125 000 euros. Then the 20 000 euros difference in operating costs will have a real significance in relation to the 50 000 depreciation value of the boat.

Of course, in inexpensive used boats, the operating costs can be superior to the depreciation value of the boats.

But the main conclusion is that the initial price of the boat has a huge importance in the total costs of owning and operating a boat while cruising.

This makes boats like the Oceanis or Bavarias unbeatable in what regards budget cruising (I am talking about new production market boats), not because a mass production motorboat could not be produced costing the same or even less, but simply because that boat does not exist in the market.
All comparable motorboats regarding interior space and seaworthiness cost at least 1,5X to 3X more.

Of course we can do what Milan suggests: “If one wants to buy a production boat for economical cruising in semi protected waters, I think the easiest solution would be to buy one of the deck-saloon sailing boats without rig and fin. Money saved on the rig, sails and winches could easily finance new shallower rudder, bigger fuel tanks and quite a lot of fuel for the nice, long cruising.”
But that will not beat the Oceanis and Bavaria prices, simply because mass production boats will not do that. They have an image that they don’t want to degrade.

So for doing that you have to go to one of the small semi-custom boat manufactures, and even if you can find one that does that, anyway the initial price of those boats is 2x the price of the Oceanis and Bavarias…so goodbye economical motor boat.

Another conclusion is that, regarding traditional heavy Motorsailors, a mass production boat like the Oceanis will always be less expensive to cruise and to own, simply because traditional Motorsailors are very expensive. As example, a Fisher 37 costs about 300 000 euros and the Nauticat 38 a little bit more.

Regarding this type of motorsailors it is possible to find motorboats with comparable prices that will be less expensive to own and to operate, but of course, this doesn’t mean that they are a better option.

Back to the Sturier, that is a paradigmatic example, because it has the same boat with the two options. For my cruising year mileage, that is about 2000 miles, I would always choose the motorsailor, even if it turns marginally more expensive.

The Sturier has only one engine, and even if it is a good one, accidents will happen, and if you have a problem in the engine, or on the propeller, you are in trouble. With the motor sailor you got two engines (a sail one), and in most situations you will stay out of trouble.

The Motorsailor does not have only the advantage of safety but also of motion comfort. This type of boats (trawlers) roll a lot and without a stabilizing sail they can be very uncomfortable.



When I will have the time I will make the same comparison between a good sailboat and a motorboat. This time the operating costs will be more favorable to the sailboat, in comparison with the traditional motorsailor and a more dificult bet to the motorboat.

[Vega]

There is another nice French Trawler, The Rhéa 1100, designed by Joubert / Nivelt (the ones that had designed “Andreyale” – post 93).

It can have a 200Hp engine and it is not a beamy boat as most of trawlers of this size. It has a semi displacement hull and it should be an efficient boat regarding consumption/mile, and a relatively fast one too.

http://www.rhea-marine.fr/en/detail_1100_trawler.htm#

fcfc, do you know the price of this one?

[Milan]

"…for doing that you have to go to one of the small semi-custom boat manufactures, and even if you can find one that does that, anyway the initial price of those boats is 2x the price of the Oceanis and Bavarias…so goodbye economical motor boat…"

I'm not so sure that it would be that much more expensive. By the way, Van de Stadt designed 11.50 meters metal (steel or aluminum) motor boat for economical cruising with a single engine of 37 kW. Boat is more or less deck saloon sailing boat type of hull, with a wider, partly immersed transom. They are not built in series, but on order by at least one Dutch custom builder. Boat is constructed from the pre cut kit multi chine quick assembly method. That should be considerably cheaper then normal custom boat building ways.
http://www.beisterveld.com/index.htm
http://www.stadtdesign.com/English/history11.htm

Here is the another nice aluminum sailing boat built in a small series which could be used as a motor cruiser. Price for the hull, deck, cabin, ballast and Yanmar 3 GM installed is 85 000 E:
http://vanbenthem-jachtbouw.com/