Cost Of Traditional Wood Build Vs Various Modern Techniques

Originally Posted by dskira

And a lot of people did it before me believe me.
Ten day? they didn't loft, they just loft the main forms, built upside down, nothing quite extravagant on that.
Nicholson does at the booming time a complete 30' hull in wood in a week.
The thing take for ever when the hull is done. The hull is the pleasant time, go fast and its fun.
Remember that Donald MacKay took 6 months to do a 1200 ton clipper.
Ready to sail.
Fast was the way to built. Efficient, no back office with plenty of secretary and important people, no, just workers and good foreman.
Daniel

Hhmm ten days including lofting, I do´nt buy as well,

but, Daniel, we did boats in "days" as you know!!! You did, I did, and many others did in the early days of composite wood Ep days..............

Sure I do not claim our products were built to last ....


but we did it.........

You tooo

Regards
Richard

[dskira]

Originally Posted by BATAAN

After 50 years of sailing and messing in boats, I do try to stay out of the way of barges and if I'm between two of them I have absolutely screwed up, I think....
And as far as sailing a tug boat..... The RICHMOND (Now WHITEFIN) was built as a gas tug in 1917 for Crowley to pull log rafts from Washington state to LA, then in the fifties turned into a fishboat, then in the seventies we rigged her as a three masted junk and the owner took her to Costa Rica and Hawaii. She's still alive in Sausalito.
The GOVERNOR M.B.M., built by W. F. Stone in San Francisco in 1901 as a "plunger" (little-known large gaff rigged catboats to service oyster business), converted to a tug, died in the sixties and sank. My partner and I raised and repaired her, gave her a big boom-less, overlapping foresail gaff rig like an 1805 pilot boat out of Chapelle and off she went to Hawaii.
The 1925 wood tug SEA GIANT was made into a lovely ketch in the middle seventies and is still cruising. Gotta love them old boats built by pros.

That BATAAN is music to my hear
Daniel

[dskira]

Originally Posted by apex1

Hhmm ten days including lofting, I do´nt buy as well,

but, Daniel, we did boats in "days" as you know!!! You did, I did, and many others did in the early days of composite wood Ep days..............

Sure I do not claim our products were built to last ....


but we did it.........

You tooo

Regards
Richard

Do you know a strange thing, in cold molded I never used epoxies. I always used Aerodux and then Balcotan, who was develloped for shoes!
It still the favorit glue in Englad.
Yes as for sailing and racing boat, speed to built was paramount, the life span, well what ever. Anyway the rules changing every year, it was back to the drafting board and a new construction. So fast and light. No resale value
As for the fishing boat, that was an other story.
A forest was not enough for one boat (figure of speech of course)
No glue, bolt and tar. And do not forget the ABC!
Quite different but this is the great thing in boat, the diversity.
About ABC, no way to convince you to get back to your dream ship?
Daniel

Originally Posted by dskira

Do you know a strange thing, in cold molded I never used epoxies. I always used Aerodux and then Balcotan, who was develloped for shoes!
It still the favorit glue in Englad.
Yes as for sailing and racing boat, speed to built was paramount, the life span, well what ever. Anyway the rules changing every year, it was back to the drafting board and a new construction. So fast and light. No resale value
As for the fishing boat, that was an other story.
A forest was not enough for one boat (figure of speech of course)
No glue, bolt and tar. And do not forget the ABC!
Quite different but this is the great thing in boat, the diversity.
About ABC, no way to convince you to get back to your dream ship?
Daniel

Well ,Balcotan was not a crime, not the use of a forest for a boat either, ALL of us know, boats are wooden, when for centuries, ""sophisticated"" when for the use of a single trip...........

R
R

some of course ARE as well of metal......

during the past 4 weeks I killled the rep of 8 mass Producers,

wait, the list is long..... ALL FRP.......

and I am going ahead........

[Boston]

master suite looking aft
what might be mistaken for windows actually is supposed to represent raised panel work although I might make one of them a window Im kinda up in the air about which one
the door to the left of the master bed leads out to the aft deck area and swim platform



Master suite looking forward
two doors either side of the stair leading up to the wheel house
door on the right leads to the head
door on the left leads to the shower



couple of elevations

there are a few small discrepancies between various drawings but these are just some sketches to help me do a decent weight budget


Apex
I think your more impatient than I am to get cracking

Im actually getting kinda busy again
the fire place mantle thing is getting close to assembly stage
I picked up a cool oval window to rebuild on an old victorian
a set of kitchen cabinets
and I'll probably get this bathroom remodel I bid the other day
oh
a front door and a living room remodel as well as a shed for a friend

I dont need the practice Apex what I need is moe money

I was thinking about what someone mentioned about building fast
it takes some really good planing to do
all material needs to be on hand and prepped
all glue and fasteners handy and good plan of attack
bla bla bla

hope all is well
cheers
B

[BATAAN]

Beautiful drawings of what will be a very fine little boat.
Painful experience has led me to make full-size mock ups of very cheap materials like cardboard and scrap ply when working out interiors, then spending a great deal of time actually sitting, standing, going in and out of doors, reaching into compartments and adjust what is non-ergonomic.
This can be done before the hull is even built with a little lofting.
It takes time and costs money but one boat I know had the interior sledge hammered out twice before it was "Just right" and should have been mocked up before hand. Also I prefer Herreshoff type simple paneling made of wide boards for classic yacht work, white-painted pine for interiors, mahogany outside. Various plywoods make good panels today but the rail and stile thing still has use. It goes together amazingly quick when you get it down (there are no tenons, only plowed grooves and long bronze pins made from rod) is much easier to fit than plywood and lasts a long time.
Bunk fronts the same as done in an all-nailed 35 foot 1915 motor fishing boat (tuna jigger) I took apart in the late seventies (so was at least 60 years down the road of hard use before I got to it) The master joiner who built the interior put a pine board toe nailed to the floor, a lapped board neatly clench nailed on the front to make the bunk height, a frame an inch below the top that goes from the resultant berth front outboard to the hull or ceiling, plank the top with removable fitted pine boards and there you are, no ply, no frame and done in two hours. Moving on, which is all the yard foreman wants to hear.
The tiny fo'csle had three fixed bunks, a folding settee/berth, a fold-down bulkhead table that exposed a many compartmented locker.... it went on and on the treasures of learning in that one old tired boat and every where you moved, there was just the right amount of room to turn, sit down, sleep and live.
Ah, those old guys knew how to do build real boats, and so fast it made your head spin by leaving out anything not essential. The same boat also had a lovely small, curved front pilot house just big enough for two crammed in people with 5 pocket windows that still worked which had NO top frame, the 180 degree bent oak top front WAS the frame and the narrow cedar roof boards (ripped to width planking scraps like the canvased deck I'm sure) nailed to it and canvased.... 60 years before I examined it and never rebuilt. Good nails in those days.

[Tad]

Originally Posted by Boston

master suite looking aft

B

There's no left and right on a boat....it's either port or starboard.

Decks are not flat, they have crown, less than the cabintop, about 1/2" per foot of beam should be a guide. Cabin sides have tumblehome...roughly 1.5" in 12" will work in this type of traditional vessel. Loose half the overhang on the cabintop, better access along the side deck. Toe rails?

Cabin sides do not extend to sole, there is a break at the deck edge with a longitudinal carlin tying deck beams together. This is covered with a facia piece and there are lockers below under the side deck. Include vent holes and water drains everywhere into every space.

Cockpit sole must be at least 12" above DWL, aft door sill 6" min. above that. Too many steps, usual rise is 8-12".

Sections are not consistent with 25,000 disp., check against your profile. The aft bottom will be much higher, you will require a step up in the sole alongside the bed. Your section looking forward is smaller than the aft one...that's incorrect. You will also need some tanks aft to balance chain and anchors on the bow.

[Boston]

working on it

the deck crown I knew about but just didn't draw in although the cockpit being 12' above water line is news to me. Kinda screws up the whole plan in terms of head clearance and proportions
unless I misunderstand what you are saying it sorta is a game ender for this particular set of drawings and I will need to start completely over

all cabin floors must be 12" above water line ?
the cabin pictured is the aft cabin master suite

the hull shape bellow the line is a guess at this point and Im still working out weight although at this size and the projected weight I think it worked out to about a 1' draft on a flat bottom ( its not going to be a flat bottom though).

Tumblehome is also news to me I thought this style was slab sided
I will be sure and incorporate that into the next series of corrected drawings assuming I can get past the floor elevation issue previously mentioned
if I add the tumblehome I can keep the overhangs at 6"

the cabin sides going all the way down to the hull I thought was kinda a nice stiffener but if it works out to heavy Ill start cutting and that detail might just be the first to go, also in the next elevation of the "port" side you can see I have cabinet doors along the entire length of that access area
sorta got started on that last night. I dont have time to scan it and post but Ill do so later tonight

the cabin top overhang is 6' and 3' would definitely allow better clearance down the side deck area if I stay with slab sides

I think the size of the drawings is not to scale with one another for some reason although they are drawn on the same graph paper they just for some reason came out different sizes

if you consider that each square = 3" they should both work out to the same width and height in the cabin area

hmmmmmm
all cabins must be 12" above the water line ?
cause that puts me straight back to square one

thanks for all the incredibly helpful tips and compliments

cheers
B

[Tad]

Originally Posted by Boston

all cabins must be 12" above the water line ?
cuase that puts me straight back to square one

No....just the sole of the outside aft deck, so that it for sure drains quickly when the cockpit is full of water. That aft door into the boat is your downflooding point, the higher above DWL that sill is, the safer the boat. That aft bulkhead is also structural (minimize holes) and should be watertight well above DWL for when the rudder gets ripped off on a big nasty rock.

Just put a sliding hatch over the aft door. Like this....

[Tad]

Oh ya......

Nothing in a boat is straight or square or parallel.....if you think it is or should be....you're doing it wrong..... That's why boats take a long time to build and good ones don't look at all like cracker boxes......

[BATAAN]

I agree about rudders and big nasty rocks. A watertight bulkhead with a door sill high enough to be inconvenient to step over is usually about right. And taking the chain and anchor stowage as far back from the bow as you can always helps ease pitching and helps the ends rise to that way-too-big breaking wave that just appeared there. Ditto the tanks. As close to the center as you can manage, which usually isn't very close, but lower and more to the middle you put any weight improves seaworthiness in general.

[peter radclyffe]

Wood Boat 1916 Classic Motor Yacht Rare Sea Worthy

[peter radclyffe]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Wood-...ZOtherQ5fBoats

[peter radclyffe]

i dont how sound it is, i thought you might like to see it

[dskira]

Peter she is beautiful