Cost Of Traditional Wood Build Vs Various Modern Techniques

I just thought it was funny how on the one hand five seconds of sunshine later I am a red man but my *** is screaming white
its got humor to it actually

lets not get out of control here ok
my *** is not going to derail a perfectly good thread

although the issue of Dougy was a nice distraction

dam I got another question

in a home when I install a wood stove I put all kinds of heat shielding around it and keep any fine woodwork at a reasonable distance

in the boat its so jammed in there wouldnt I need a jacketed wood stove
you know
the double skinned ones ?
but the ones Ive looked up so far are all single skin and tiny
tiny is ok but arent they going to cook the woodwork and warp stuff

 

Boston,
You look to be a decent carpenter. But you're more than just a little bit stuck on yourself. Handstacking a sunroom addition takes some skills but it's all in a day's work for a moderately experienced framer.

You mention going round and round about this on the wooden boat forum. Funny how everyone is wrong but you. Mahogany is fine wood, no one would argue with you about that. Very nice stuff for building boats with. It's one of my favorites I built my own cabinets and much of my daughter's furniture of mahogany.

Your comments about fir as framing material border on the ridiculous. Half the nails not holding upon raising a wall, oh really? You insult the intelligence of any man past an apprentice with a statement like that. You claim you can't frame straight walls or floors with fir, again oh really? Maybe you don't know how. Around here a good hand crowns his boards on the fly and carefully selects his plate stock. After the walls are up you line and brace the walls. Real basic stuff, a tight stringline is your friend. Glue, plywood, adequate fasteners and good technique go a long ways towards keeping things foursquare.

Not every board is perfect, nor need it be. The whole art of carpentry revolves around sizing up the lumber pack you have and turning out quality work with it. It takes a bit of time, it maybe adds a half a manday to a moderately sized house of a few thousand feet to dial it in. My drywall guy is so anal he uses card stock for shims when doing flatwall. He never bitches about crooked walls.

Back to boats. You do understand that most wooden masts on sailing boats aren't straight don't you? Bending masts for sail trim is part of the game. All those funny wires aren't just there to keep the stick from falling over. No one would claim fir is first tier wood for all marine applications, it isn't. But it is adequate for some things and very good for others. Many decent boats are built of the materials native to the area of the build.

You're very quick to let people know you're some kind of a blue collar renaissance man. Nothing wrong with confidence and self promotion. But you do understand there are thousands of highly skilled guys on this forum with vast experience don't you? It's what makes this place so cool. Most of them keep fairly quiet about it. Their abilities are just part of who they are. No need to always talk about it. Little things slip out from time to time, pride in your work is a good thing. A good man can recognize another across different trades and experiences.

I don't care if you use doug fir or not. I know there are regional differences in lumber quality and methodology. You've lost a lot of credibility with with your blanket condemnation of a material that so many people have so much experience with. The attitude that everyone's wrong but you casts a shadow on everything you write.

 

I'd like to see a framer built that conservatory from scratch
right

I always crown my framing
I also always check my walls at center with a 6" and straighten everything just before rock
show me another builder who does that every time
its rare to say the least

obviously you did not read my previous
I would recommend going back and reading the articles presented as I am certainly not alone in my thinking that Dougy simply never stays straight

pretty clear that the industry recognizes the problem and is struggling to find a way to use the wood anyway through good marketing strategy
never mention it

including cutting it crooked and hoping it straightens out as it dries

ridiculous

just use some decent wood in the first place

Hemy is strong enough, has similar rot resistance (none) and not so strong as to take the building with it if it moves
it seldom splits out a nail and seldom cracks. goes together beautifully

not sure what your on about over the wood issue as I always say to each his own but

Douglas is cheap and plentiful for a reason
its junk

get over it

ps
I built that conservatory out of laminated white oak
milled it in the shop
I built the glass units at the plant I was consulting with at the time; the complex angles seemed a bit much for there fairly new crew so I just did it myself
I bent the metal at my buddies machine shop (thanks Denis)
hell I even did the brickwork on the foundation cause there stone mason got hurt and I needed it done
they put me up in aspen for the whole summer
it was awesome
I loved that job and they had been looking for quite a while for someone who could build that thing
and Aspen has some of the best craftsmen around

its not boasting its just defending my position by showing a certain level of experience that is a bit beyond just slapping Dougy together and calling it good

 

I'm a former general contractor myself, and I was in the building industry for most of thirty years, except for a few detours into things like roughnecking on oil rigs when construction got slow. I'm the son and grandson of carpenters, so I knew more going into it than a lot of guys who claimed to be experienced. And it seems to me sometimes that Boston must be from an alternate universe, when he starts bagging on Douglas fir.

I used it to death for years. My nails held, my walls were true and straight. My cabinets were planed, scraped and sanded smooth, and the doors didn't warp, cup, crack or split.

Then again, I knew what to use and how to use it. I bought lifts of framing material green, and got it used and wrapped before it dried out in the sun and the wind. I bought clear, kiln-dried Douglas fir for finish work, and kept it indoors under cover until I could use it.

Nails normally slide straight through green, wet Douglas fir without cracking the wood, and hold just fine once they get there--particularly when you keep in mind that standard framing configuerations put sheer forces on nails, not pulling forces.

The only time I normally had problems nailing DF was toenailing 2x's that had lain around the jobsite a little too long, and the anwer was simple: I either set them aside for something else and grabbed some green sticks, or I pre-drilled.

On finish work, I pre-drilled for fasteners--just like I would with hardwoods like oak. Douglas Fir is stable and takes glue and paint well. It isn't perfect; it does have more variation between springwood and summerwood than a lot of other woods, and you have to keep that in mind. But that isn't a defect; it's just the nature of the material, and you learn to work with it--especially when doing finish work.

You have to keep your tools dead sharp; you can peel splinters off sharp edges if you aren't careful; and over-sanding (or using sandpaper without a solid backing) can give you a ripple effect.

I'll stack my lifetime of experience against yours anyday, Boston; I've worked on everything from movie sets to decks and garages, custom cabinetry and mansions in Beverly Hills and Bel Air. And I don't need to 'get over' anything. Douglas Fir is cheap because it's plentiful, not because it's junk.

 

looks like there are more than a few well known woodrights in this particular universe of mine

exactly what I noticed about it after 30+ years of working with it when it was called out

I never once used it for finish because of its poor finishing qualities and at one time early on I was working repairs for a large home builder fixing problems caused by bad framing ( mostly Dougy ) they eventually moved to using Hem Fir everywhere they could

I am most assuredly not alone on this issue

 

There's a simple reason why a board sawn from curved log is often straighter than one from perfectly straight. The curved log is easier to set on the saw table the right way, so the curving that is most likely going to happen straightens when laid to dry.

 

I don't know how any piss fir (hem fir) can be used green in home building. I know they use it KD as studs in mobile homes built under roof. I have never seen another wood warp like piss fir when building in the hot sunlite. I tried it for plate stock once and it lifted up rafters over an inch. It has no grain and you can't even use it for firewood as it pops and sparks and throws flaming ambers everywhere. Worst wood I've ever seen and the only known use is for trailer beds for tractors as W/O grain the treads don't tear it up much. That in my 2 bits plus it stinks. All this was building in northern Calif.

 

LOL,
I find it more than amusing you keep going back to the books to prove your point. Books are useful, I have several hundred in my carpentery library. Some are 150 years old and I have learned much from them. But carpentering is a trade going back thousands of years. Many of the little tricks and techniques have seldom if ever been written down. You learn from the old guys, hell from every guy you ever work with one way or another. And as you gain experience, from your own observations and experiments. I laughingly point out my education has cost millions of dollars.

Aspen has no claim to exclusitivity on excellent craftsman. Any place with a concentration of wealth creates a demand for first class work beyond the tract grade production level. And there is nothing wrong with well done tract work.

Your sunroom is nice but honest to god it isn't amazing. You were forced to make the glass because the factory crew couldn't handle the angles? Give me a break. When I get wierd custom glass fabricated I give them labeled templates. Takes only a few minutes to make to make and they appreciate the patterns, it makes their job easier and removes doubt about liability. If it fits the template it fits the opening, every single time.

I'm younger than Troy but I entered the trades in the last days of the old school. LOL I remember hanging siding with the cut man being an old guy using a handsaw. He kept two young monkeys scrambling on the scaffolding without breaking a sweat. Filed his saw at lunch. In my prime with nailguns and power tools we were a little faster, but not a lot faster.

We often did everything but hang the rock and shingles. It makes for a better structure if you are the guy who has to deal with your own shortcomings of the previous steps. But this isn't about me bragging on I did this or I did that. I've got nothing to prove. I'm good but I'm not unique. There are, however, monuments to my abilities scattered around the local community and elsewhere. Same as any other swinging dick with a toolbag and a truck.

Your blanket statements on fir and hemlock speak volumes about an alternative universe as Troy put it I guess. It certainly doesn't relate to superior abilities, techniques, and skills with a material that literally thousands and thousands of guys can do first rate work with. I guess they didn't read the book.

 

i dont know about the u.s, but in europe douglas fir is often used for lower masts,
& spruce is used for topmasts or bermudan,because its lighter
their like gibson & fender, or stanley & record, standards,

 

its a puzzle to me Boston why you have such bad luck with d f, these were lulworths spars in our workshop
first spruce topmast,
df lower
df boom
spruce jackyard
spruce gaff

 

I like that, you talk about your own experience on the field.
That worth all the theories on any book.
And I fully agree with you.
Daniel

 

Wally I agree which why I pointed out the generations of woodrights behind my initial statements as well as the lifetimes experience I have in the area
at which point someone came along and complained about that aproach so I then went on to site several important studies by well known and respected figures in the industry who after extensive study came to the same conclusions

nothing out here is ever used green

I would recommend reading "wood a manual for its uses in wooden vessels" for info on the proper way to stack and dry wood

Hem fir is weaker than Douglas but strong enough for western platform framing which is what most folks do no mater what area of the country they build in ( this one at least )

Hemmy is almost always straighter and is way easier to work into a nice straight house
thing is it was so popular its harder to get these days

Dougy on the other hand is plentiful
I dont wonder why

Peter
Im equally as baffled as to why so many boat builders love the stuff
around here no one else but a few framers ever really defend Dougy
that and no finish shop in there right mind makes anything out of it
its framing lumber
Ive built a ton of custom windows and doors
wouldnt even consider it out of Dougy
cherry oak black walnut no problem
poplar even on many a lower end custom window
but no custom shop round here used Dougy for much other than crates and pallets

I have a lot of respect for most of you guys agree or not on this one
Im mystified as to why a material with such inconsistent properties and poor characteristics is being lauded as the material of choice
like you I have worked with it for years and I come to the exact opposite conclusion

are those solid or laminated mast sections would be my first question

and how do you keep the mast step area from rotting out

Dougy has poor rot resistance (particularly at the end grains) or maybe marginal at best, but certainly nothing like white oak black locust black walnut etc etc etc
I am completely baffled as well

oh well to each his own

cheers guys
B

 

You should try steel. No surprise
You seams to mix all the wood in the same statement.
Hemlock /spruce /fir is used extensively to built house on the spot. Several million are built that way. Outside.
Now fir, you are talking about Douglas Fir, is a very good wood, without any problems. Just choose wisely.
Kiln dried wood can be difficult to work with but by far I never had the sort of problems you are talking about.
Just knowing the wood and taking care of it when you buy it is perhaps a good solution to your problems.
The wood do not come to you as you wish, it is from a tree, with its own character and specification. Surprise abound, and it is part of the job to know the species and how to use them. What ever they are.
Bad wood do not exist.
When I think, it is quite something to go to a tree and telling him: you bad
Daniel.

 

Ps

nice to know your reading along Peter
its always interesting to discover what high caliber folks are lurking in the background as I work through the development process

cheers to all
I dont really care what kind of wood you prefer
after all its all in good fun isn't it

B

 

Well, you guys barking at each other from opposite sides of the same straight/twisted (delete as applicable) fence are not likely to change each others' minds, so why don't you agree to disagree and then move on? It seems fruitless to attack each other’s competence just because you have had different experiences.

Personally, despite my limited experience in woodwork or boat building, I have found a tremendous range of quality in the types of wood I have used and a gradual falling off of quality over the years. It can be very difficult to get a decent hull out of what we have to work with these days IMHO. I tend to cut most of the lumber species into strips, flip the odd strips and then laminate it back together: only way it can be used with any confidence, unless you use massive sections, air-dried for years.

As for fastener retention, I thought fasteners went out shortly after the ark; or at least shortly after we got decent glues to use. But I could be wrong!

Do people still use solid, non-laminated wood masts? It seems much easier and cheaper to make a glued-up hollow mast, and most of the bad habits the wood has doesn’t effect such a mast in my -admittedly limited- experience.