cost to have boat designed

[mojomfg]

im curious what the cost would be to have a boat designed
by a naval architect.

a plywood chine similar in build construction to peter snell's easy line
of boats but as a trawler power cat in the 40-44 ft range

and who then owns the right to distribute the plans ??

thanks ...kevin

[PAR]

Each designer has different ways to charge for services. Hourly rates, estimates, percentage of the completed yacht, etc.

The designer owns the sole rights to the design. The client is purchasing the right to build one example of this design, unless other wise arranged with them. The client has no right to distribute some one else's work, without consent.

[mojomfg]

" The client has no right to distribute some one else's work, without consent"


thanks for the answer par

not to cause a s*%t storm but if i paid for the work in a lot of
other fields it would be considered mine

of course i could see under those terms a price varying on how desirable
the design would be depending on how many people would be interested in it

[FAST FRED]

"of course i could see under those terms a price varying on how desirable
the design would be depending on how many people would be interested in it"

Most NA will design the boat JUST for you.

Should someone else want that design it may need to be modified,

but even if just sold as is it helps the NA make up for the 500/1+ difference between inquiries and cash customers.

IF a NA decides a new design is simply so fantastic that hundreds of folks will purchase plans , the NA will publish them as "stock plans" , and waits for the deluge of orders.And waits , and waits....

FF

[Alik]

Usually if NA designs the boat for private customer, he owns the rights on plans. In case of re-sale the designer will not normally support the plans purchaded not from him during the construction.

If we design the boat for a builder/distrubutor, we transfer the rights to the builder and make royalty agreement if it is a production design.

[marshmat]

Hi mojomfg (kevin),

As has been pointed out by a few folks already, designers generally keep the rights to their designs.

If you commission a custom design for a one-off, expect to be charged the full cost of the time the NA and his/her staff will take to do the drawings, engineering calculations, any computer simulations that may be necessary, design meetings, etc. From what I've heard, NAs are actually relatively cheap in this sense, compared to consulting engineers in many other sectors (or the infamous "global management consultants"). It's a lot of work, and the NA needs to make a living somehow. You'll end up with a complete set of drawings, the rights to build one boat, and the NA's support and expert advice throughout the process.

If you want to build a second one, or if a friend wants to build one, you have to go back to the designer and work out a new fee arrangement. Odds are it'll work out to be less than the original custom design (which was relatively expensive, because the designer didn't know if he'd ever be able to sell another set of those plans- the fact that it's a custom job suggests that it's a bit out of the mainstream).

If you want to build a few examples of the boat, you'll probably have to pay a royalty fee per boat. As a percentage of the boat's cost, this is usually quite small. The exception is on licensing royalties for some exotic or unusual technologies, which occasionally have large per-hull fees attached.

Stock plans are, of course, usually the cheapest way to go.... the designer has already put in the time to do the drawings and need not do so again, so he can spread the cost of that time out over many sets of plans. But expect to pay for custom modifications you might want done.

If you want to commission a design and end up with full rights to it, expect to pay substantially more than you would for a one-off or a series of per-hull royalties, as well as a long and legally intricate contract.... if, that is, the designer will even do this. Many won't.

[PAR]

If you bought a Corvette, do you have the right to produce a few more to suit your friends desires? Do you think GM will get pissy about it, if you did?

If the fellow that designed a building for you noticed another, just like it going up a few blocks away, do you think he would call his lawyer?

Basically, the drawings fall under copyright protection, just like the logo on the side of a UPS truck.

A client can arrange for limited production from a single set of plans, pay royalty fees for additional examples from the same plan set or work out a production contract, all with the original designer.

[mojomfg]

[quote=PAR;242534]If you bought a Corvette, do you have the right to produce a few more to suit your friends desires? Do you think GM will get pissy about it, if you did?

I think im looking at this too much as the owner of a manufacturing company

not boat related and no intrest in getting into building more than my own

but :
GM pays to have that corvette designed and not every person that had a hand in it is a GM empoyee if they were an outsourced firm or a designer that
leaves GM they have no right to go sell the brake calipers that they designed to ford to build on the next line of mustangs

PAR and everyone else , i dont think you are wrong so dont take my posts
wrong
if I hire someone to design a boat to meet my needs i would feel
no claim to that design whatsoever
but if i have a design of my own in mind and want it to
be verified for its structural integrity i think i have some claim to it as well
kevin

[PAR]

Kevin, maybe I was too harsh. It wasn't my intension to offend.

If you have a design that needs only some verification, you have a few avenues of pursuit. One is to hire a designer to look over you plans and sign off on recommended scantling or other design element changes they think are necessary. The design would still be yours, but at what point or if a designer would require their name be attached is an subject best discussed with them. Another is to have an agency look over the drawings and have them place their stamp of approval on it.

The bottom line is how complete you drawing are and how much alteration is necessary to make it acceptable for who ever is looking it over.

I have done just this very task on several occasions. One is a lady who posted here a few years ago. Her husband designed and started building a boat, then died. She wanted help. She called and I completed the rough plans he'd drawn up, including modifications he incorporated during the building of the hull shell. I had her literally climbing all over the boat taking measurements, pictures and getting intimate with the thing. She wanted to finish the boat herself, but realized it was well past her skill levels, so she found help from another that had heard of her plight and happened to have just completed a small cruising sloop. The boat is now on track and the plans are in her husband's name. I do have my logo in the corner of the drawings I provided, but I call the design what it is and the designer, who it is. All I did was reconcile the issues and generate some prints. Okay there where several packages of cookies involved and she had to pay some money, but the boat's in progress as her husband's design and that's the point.

[mojomfg]

Thanks PAR
no offence was taken

we are both in a field where one's ideas have a value

i have plenty of time maybe someone will come out with a stock design first

but there is a certain joy of acomplishment with building something and ive always felt it , even more so when its your design ,dream ,vision whatever

[PAR]

Writing that last post got me to call the lady with the boat project I mentioned in the last post. We've become friends and she sends cookies frequently. She was complaining about snow in the morning, as I was complaining about he cold front about to move in and drop us down into the low 60's. She didn't have much sympathy for me. Well, she's writing a book about the adventure with her husband's boat, the design process and the continuation of it's construction.

Mojomfg, live your dream, you might even get a book deal out of it. You only get one shot at this life thing, so go for it I say.

[FAST FRED]

i have plenty of time maybe someone will come out with a stock design first

What makes you believe the "ideal" boat for you is not out sailing?

What requirement do you have that is so SPECIAL, that dozens of designs don't already exist?

Have you checked the Gallery , on this board and followed the many links?

FF

[mojomfg]

my requirements are not that many in fact what i want is kind of simple
a catamaran similar to peter snell's easy 11.6 but built as a powercat
powered by a pair of outboards capable of making it belize for the winters
from somewhere around florida

[ancient kayaker]

This is an interesting thread and many different points of view have come up. While even NA's have at least as much right to make a living as the toad wintering under my porch, the customer who pays for design and development may think they own more than they sail way with.

My life was mis-spent on robotics and industrial automation before I retired and discovered the fascination of boats. If an organisation wanted their factory automated to make a product more efficiently, it was so specific to their requirements there was little chance of selling another so design and technology ownership was rarely an issue. However, one customer in the entertainment industry wanted us to make 10 tonne robots and didn't want us later working for their competitors. Government agencies usually want to own the patents developed with their coin. It could take a long time to close an agreement when all the lawyers got into the act. It happened more than once that I would spend months solving the technological challenges, sold the customer on a concept, bargained with subcontractors, negotiated an acceptable price within my company, only to have the deal soured by lawyers, or sometimes by politicians.

[marshmat]

Originally Posted by PAR

She was complaining about snow in the morning, as I was complaining about he cold front about to move in and drop us down into the low 60's. She didn't have much sympathy for me.

I have very little sympathy for you either, PAR. It took twenty minutes yesterday to chisel my car out from a thick layer of ice that had completely sealed every window and door, and frozen the wheels to the driveway.

Kayaker - I know what you mean about getting lawyers and politicians involved in engineering work. You think you have it all planned out.... and then a 200-page contract lands on your desk with post-its everywhere. You fix the errors in it, and it keeps coming back.... and back.... until someone says "f*** it" and the deal either dies, or lands in court. Glad I don't have to deal with that....