cost to have boat designed

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by mojomfg, Dec 11, 2008.

  1. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Mojomfg is not placing a contract, just asking for a guestimate, no liabilities, as many conditions as you want including builder approval. Suggest exclude list expensive options or list separately.

    This process is known as twisting the lions' tail, the lions being the NAs in this case. As a relative outsider I am enjoying it!

    However, Mojomfg, what you are asking for now sounds a bit more than what I thought you wanted which may be justifying the shyness of the NAs. Also, if you want that muich speed then planing is a given.

    Was it Lady Astor who famously said of a large yacht "if you have to ask how much you can't afford it" -back in the 50's?
     
  2. mojomfg
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    mojomfg Junior Member

     
  3. mojomfg
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    Location: ohio

    mojomfg Junior Member

     
  4. rasorinc
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    No Ancient Kayaker it was J.P. Morgan that said that. I was in his office with others and the press and a young man asked him "How much would a boat like yours cost"
     
  5. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Rough answer found in Internet for stock plans:

    http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/40cat.html
    3,800 US dollars. Very cheap, the archi made the bet of selling several. Stock plans for ONE BOAT for a person, home built or shipyard built, and not more. Copyright owned by Hughes. Add additional fees at hourly rate for modifications, that can get expensive if too many modifs are asked.

    http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/60pwrtri.html
    7,500 US dollars. Same comments.

    *****************************
    From experience:

    If you want an exclusivity for a 40-45 power cat, that depends on what exclusivity:

    A-Exclusivity of design, engineering and maybe methods for a pro shipyard. Depends largely on the amount of engineering asked (some shipyards ask only general drawings taking care of the remaining work, other ask for very detailed plans with building methods, sometimes industrial processes). Depends also of the reputation of the NA, some signatures are very expensive...

    Contract transmissible to another shipyard.

    1. If you want a basic drawing it could perhaps cost 5000 from Fulano de Tal NA at las Ceibas Honduras to 100000 USD and more from some high reputation NA (Naval Architect). Add fees from 0.5 to 5 % on the selling price on each boat built, that can give place to very bitter and hard discussions. More the NA has a big signature, more the contract has pages, more lawyers are in the deal.

    2. If you want engineered with certification for US Coats Guards or other foreign rules ( Italian are very hard to comply) under construction standard like the Det Norske Veritas this it could perhaps cost from 12000 to the 300000 USD. Some NA have big teeth. Do not forget the additional fees, and Det Norske honorary for the inspection.

    3. If you want engineered, plus complete serial industrial processes that it could perhaps cost from 20000 with traditional methods to a 1 million and more if innovative processes are used, as it involves several consultants. Do not forget the additional fees and cost of patents.

    That explains why all the "big" shipyards have a engineering department. They ask to the NA a general drawing, with a nice signature, and take care of the remaining.

    B-Exclusivity of design for a common customer. I do not see the interest of the customer to pay an extra fee for an exclusivity of design to the NA, I mean the look of the boat, as everybody can and will reproduce this look unless protected by international patents, expensive task...

    1- If a custom plan, with common engineering for one customer for building ONE BOAT count on three to five times the price of a stock plan or 3 to 7 % of the cost of the boat built by a pro shipyard. Depends on the reputation of the NA.

    2-You're an Arab emir, you will use the 40some feet catamaran as tender for your megayacht. You want an exclusive design evoking the Arabian nights combined with the most aggressive modernism. I have no idea.

    C-Exclusivity of design for a professional customer. Pro use of the boat. Same remarks as above in B-, why an exclusive of design, I mean look, for a charter boat, or a fishing trawler? If nice it will be copied.

    C-1-Same prices as B-1- Add the additional costs of engineering for certifications for example for transporting passengers. Depends on the number of hours involved on the certification dossier. Can be expensive if new materials are involved. Can go largely over that if the contract is assorted with penalty fees for the NA if after trials the speed, fuel consumption etc...estimations on the contract are not met.

    C-2- Arab emir professional customer. That can happen?????

    Anecdotal :To give a slight idea to where that can go. A big warship design involves a team from 100 to 600 engineers, plus hundreds of technicians, drawers on CAD, informaticians, exterior consultants etc, about 10 to 12.000 (twelve thousands) sheets of plans, grossly 100,000 to 200,000 hours of engineering minimal.
    The weight of the boat will be estimated with a precision better than 0.01%, the centers of gravity etc... within 3 millimeters (1/8 of inch) on a 265 meters boat, and speed within 0.05 knot. The other calculations follow the same standards. All will be checked by extensive trials and tests. I remember the screams of the chief engineer when the weight of a prototype of patrol boat has been measured at 478.5 metric tons instead of the 477.2 calculated...
     
  6. Eddy Johansen
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    Eddy Johansen Hydrosport Sportboats

    I really get amazed by prices I see around. And I do not understand why, does NAs want to make a months salary with a weeks job or a years salary with a months job?

    A NA that has made a design, made that investment, if he would sell the drawings for 200 bucks instead of 4K, I am pretty sure he would eventually make more cash flow. People would simply buy the drawings as a design study and something to dream about, even if they never actually made the boat.

    Anyway, I do not design for others, but I can surely forward contacts of good, experienced NAs that make custom made basic drawings and calculations for a 40ft powercat for less then 5K. I will of course not make a dime on forwarding contacts if someone asks.

    Italien rules are exactly the same as CE rules. All european countries must have the same rules, and when a boat has a CE plate + CE declaration of conformity, it can be used/registered in any european country straight.

    CE approval for a CE class D ("sheltered waters") and class C ("coastal waters") boats shall not cost more than 2K, and no DNV, Lloyds, RINA or any other notified body is necessary as long as harmonised CE rules for stability are applied.

    CE approval for a CE class B ("at large") and class A ("ocean going") boats might add up some 2-3K extra for intervention of notified body.

    Boats should be fun - not a rip off! So.... have fun!
     
  7. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    That's retirement in far away countries you think about RINA and it's CE now...

    You seem to underestimate totally the amount of work needed, (have you already counted the number of hours for a meticulously designed yacht, I mean with a complete set of plans, complete calculations and so on?) and the cost of a liability insurance...

    You can pay a few bucks to a NA or wanna be NA, and take the plans, but do not ask for an obligation of results, penalties if the goals are not met, and liability if the boat built by you breaks in two on a wave, and you have a prosecutor plus three lawyers hired by the families asking 2,000,000 USD damages for the 3 dead passengers.

    A true NA or Naval Engineer is not a geek playing with a computer, it's a trained guy with many years of formation. For serious calculation like hydro and aero, FEM you'll use a 25,000 dollars computer and a 2 to 5 programs at 5,000 USD each. Not freewares or low cost programs. You can draw boats with a PC for fun, not at professional level for professional users.

    In France a naval engineer spends 2 years to prepare the entrance examination (less than 5 % admitted), plus 3 years of studies (40% fail), plus eventually 1 to 2 years of specialization. My ex-associate and nevertheless friend has a master in physics and a doctorate of hydrodynamics: 7 years of university.

    Not young boys playing at boat design like others nitendo. Responsibilities involving sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars. It's not virtual game on video.

    Imagine a major yacht shipyard building 200 boats with a such defect that implies the recall of all the boats... imagine a fishing boat capsizing and killing 5 people because of a mistake in calculations...How many clients can have a NA: how many people is able to finance custom yachts?

    Cheap bad obsolete plans sellers, a search in Internet will give you several. Some make excellent living with that. Maybe 1% of these plans will be built to see salt water and all will end rotting with not resale value.

    How much do pay a car factory for a design by Bertone or Pininfarina?
    Staying in simple specialist; how much do you pay in consulting fees a lawyer? how much do you pay a doctor for 20 mn consultation? how much do you pay a surgeon? how much do you pay a pilot able to fly a 747?
    Going even in simpler works: How much would cost your mechanic for a 40 hours work?

    Do not make the confusion between the administrative cost of a certification and the engineering needed to meet the requirements of the certification...

    To end this post. The majority of Yacht NA do not make a living with that. I do not give a f..., I'm not NA, nor designer and I do not sell plans.
     
  8. Alik
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    Alik Senior Member

    2Ilan Voyager:
    Very good post. Making the design for cheap, then having expensive claims - this is what most of practicing NA's want to avoid.

    Besides, as I know there is no degree of NA in France?
     
  9. Eddy Johansen
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    Eddy Johansen Hydrosport Sportboats

    Uau...... guess he is upset now.....:rolleyes:

    No I do not underestimate. Yes, I do know the hours, I have been in the boating business since 1985 and have built boats the last 9 years, running my own company.


    In my experience, liability insurance is expensive when the insurer expect you to f*** it up. With a proven record, they are not expensive.

    I would really apreciate it if you could come up with a couple of examples of that happening. No? Oh.....


    Oh... so you want to pay the computer and all the software with one single boat design?

    For your information, a boat builder invests easily 500K++ just to start up a boat building operation, and noone is willing to pay him high prices just because of that. I see boatbuilders going out of business daily because they actually loose money on their operation.

    Never heard about a NA investing 500K++ and then loose it all. Actually never hear about a NA loosing money on his work at all. Specially on a simple project like the one initially asked in this thread.


    My wife has a PhD in plant molecular biology (that is: genetics) you know, those that are trying to make poultry grow on threes and similar stuff:D . She does not make any more money than an office clerk because of that.

    In Portugal a NA uses a minimum of 5 year to get his title. A BBA and public accountants does the same. So does an engineer or a first grade teacher. They do not make huge salaries because of those 5 years. Why should a NA?

    Yes! I know several big boat builders that had to recall houndreds of boat. No NA was made responsible.

    Please, can you just give me one example of the NA being made responsible and tell me how much he had to pay?

    :!: Now he is really mad:
    Frankly, I see no Pininfarina nor Bertone here... :D :D :D :D :D

    And honestly, you cannot compare a one-off or limited series production boat and a few million cars. Can we at least agree on that??????? ha ha


    A doctor some 30 euros and the mecanic 20 euros/hour. Why? Do they have anything to do with a NA?

    Absolutely right, I was not talking about administrative cost, I was talking about the whole process. I know, I do several new models each year.


    And do you know why? Because most people steer clear of them, afraid of being ripped of.

    I see this all the time, it is exactly the same all over the line, in every little part of the boating business (and other businesses as well): some people think their work is worth gold, giving their coleagues bad name as well.


    A finally... now that I am on the kill bill of all NAs in here:

    I do not believe a NA should make less money than, say, an accountant - but I see no reason for the opposite either.

    And yes accounting involves also liability risks, people do not usually die because of a lousy accountant, but you know - IRS are not people you want to foul around with and I have seen accountants being fined 10K+ for making mistakes or being sued 50K+ by clients claming they lost money because of him, never seen the same with a NA. But then again. I could be wrong. :confused:

    Have fun!
     
  10. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    There is not official degree of NA in France, and there is just a module of naval architecture for architects (of buildings) done in the Arts et Metiers. It was the NA Dominique Presles, originally an architect DPLG, who did the teaching, I do not who is doing it now. There is a professional association of NA called IFAN which tries to guarantee a standard within its members and thus have a label of quality. Pretty hard to be accepted in the IFAN.

    Anybody can call himself NA in France, and that's a problem in yachting. Many of the good NA made studies at the Naval Institute of Southampton of very good level, or have a formation of engineer not always in the boat field but often in relation with. For example one of my good friends NA was formerly an aviation engineer specialist of composites structures, another is an engineer of metallic structures, so you can imagine in what material are made the boats drawn by him.

    Curiously Naval Engineers, do not mix them with Marine Engineers, other field (marine engineers are on the boats in charge of the good running of the mechanics and electric items, generally very practical and clever guys), are not very fond to become NA, and stay working on ships. Less funny maybe, but many times challenging, no chance of fame, very square, but good money.

    You said true, a lot a "bad" customers want for cheap with high guarantees, a common problem in all the engineering field. Burt Rutan left the design of small experimental planes after a stupid claim, and made the work we know for pros. That explains partly why I never worked in in the yacht field but only in the work boat field, where people know what they want, and know what's a boat, so we have a common language. (race boating is a high risk experimental field, so stupid claims are not very likely, and contracts are redacted in this way of acceptation of failure) I saw too many yacht NA with legal imbroglios of the kind the client is demanding the shipyard which is demanding the NA, add the lawyers of the insurances, with "experts" sometime without any knowledge of the field and all the ****. The luxury motor boat customer being the worst it seems.

    And worst of the worst of all, most of the yacht NA can't get a decent living, caught between the rat race of the cheapest honorary to find a customer, often their own lack of technological knowledge, and the technical ignorance of insolvable yacht shipyards.

    No thanks. I stayed and I stay far from that. I have no reasons to get involved in the stuff as I have enough means to live as I like. I "work" by pleasure now only for friends on small projects that interest me to keep my brain and hands busy, and I help a local shipyard to improve its quality, as I like the owner, a good guy trying to make his best, for free. he, he...not always greedy...

    *****************

    Eddy, design your boats yourself, make yourself your engineering, you're in small boats, no ships were good diplomas are mandatory. Nobody is better served by anybody than himself. If you think that NA, engineers and hydrodynamics specialists are rippers, stay away from them in Portugal where happily for you they are not numerous as in some places of France or England. Keep the money for you. Have fun and make good boats for happy customers. It's all the badness I wish you.

    I have already fun here in the sun, on the white beach, in the shadow of the cocos, and drinking piñas coladas with my friends. I'm retired and I earned it after years of hard work selling high quality brain juice to people -a lot of Koreans among them- who understand the meaning of this word.
     
  11. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Ilan V, many thanks for providing some numbers, from myself at least. Even though you are not a NA your numbers seem the best we are likely to get. A modified stock plan sounds the best way to go, it is a fraction of the building cost.

    I am sure you are correct that all the big shipyards have engineering departments, which maybe explains a couple of things, like why NAs find it difficult to get going as independents and why if a big boat builder has to recall hundreds of boats, no NA gets made responsible.

    Eddy: If I wanted a house different to the others in the same area, an option would be to buy used and modify. It's surprising what a few $1000s spent on a new roofline, doors and windows, plus a bit of landscaping can do. Presumably that is also an option with a boat.

    In my own profession, contracts were hard to get. It was common to have a team of a half-dozen or more spend several weeks analyze a customer's requirements and assemble a bid only to get nothing. It could be the competition, a hiccup on the markets, a government regulatory change or a hundred other things. In one case I bid the lowest, $2.7M, and the customers engineering department said they could do it cheaper. After many months they figured it out at $8.4M, by which time they had spent so much of the customer's development fund that he could no longer afford my price. In at least 2 cases the guys leading the project were replaced by guys who just wanted to stick with the old ways.

    I imagine experiences like that are commonplace for a NA. Like a doctor they are in business, but unlike the doctor there is no medicare to pay the bills. In our case, it was a rare thing to be reimbursed for doing all the up front work when a job went south.
     
  12. Ilan Voyager
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    Ilan Voyager Senior Member

    Kayaker, you're welcome. For a NA the situation is not exactly similar to yours, but the difficulties are the same.

    A lot of people has problems to understand the nature of intellectual work; there are only a few papers and plans, it seems nothing but it's the sum of all the knowledge and experience of the NA.

    With a good NA you have complete plans, detailed with a set of precise dimensions of a boat that will behave as expected, with rational scantlings and other calculations like stability insuring that you'll get a safe boat, and a method of construction. Some NA add even building booklets, videos, lists of materials, and assistance etc... It's worth the money for a home builder.
     
  13. Eddy Johansen
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    Eddy Johansen Hydrosport Sportboats

    Of course I use NAs, that is the point here. One got his degree 6 years ago, but has more knowledge in materials and hydrodynamics than "geeks" sitting in front of computers for 20 years, after his hands-on approach and really building boats (with his own hands) and testing them with us - that includes not only all the compulsory CE tests (drop tests etc) but actually trying to break boats, ground them at high speed etc.

    The other one has 20 years experience at one of the best known classification societies worldwide.

    They both know very well what they are doing and still I don't pay silly money. That is the bottom line.

    PS. I am still waiting for those examples of NAs being made responsible for mistakes. I do not expect you to hand out names, but perhaps give factual examples with amounts paid in damages by a NA and pictures of those boats that "broke in two hitting a wave". Or of a shipyard that had to make a recall of "200" boats and where the NA had to pay damages for that.

    PS 2. I have also had people asking for a price for a build, refusing it for being too expensive and then they end up spending more doing themselves.

    PS 3. Our boats do comply with CE, ISO, EN, DNV, Lloyds and even more standards and we have certifications for class B boats up to 24m, bigger than the 44ft boat initially asked for in this treat. You might not call 24m a ship, but they are no dinghies either, and in this thread no price for designing a ship (battleship? - 600 engineers? - 12000 plans?) was asked. Stick to the topic.

    Yes, I will have fun! And... please have a piña colada for me also! :D
     
  14. Joakim
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    Joakim Senior Member

    This is certainly not true anymore. I'm not a NA, but a professional in CFD (full Navier-Stokers) and also quite familiar with FEM. We used to have very expensive UNIX workstations, but currently we are using 2x2 processor PC workstations, that cost far less than 5,000 USD each for both FEM (nuclear power plants etc.) and CFD. These computers are usable for 2-3 years, thus the computer cost is very low unless you are doing very big parallel computing.

    However, the programs we use cost more than 25,000 USD/year and would be much more for big parallel stuff. But there are much cheaper and even freeware, that could be used in several fields including hydro and aero.

    Joakim
     

  15. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    A point that should be noted here is the designers own interests.

    Today there are "universal" boat designers that one dat work on a megayacht , on another on a 40ft cruiser, next week a multihull..

    I have found iit is far better to stick with a person that sort of specializes.

    Multihull folks understand the horrors of overbuilding and heavy weights.

    Lead sled sailors understand the need for strong decks , for a breaking wave, unknown to the multi folks.

    Sport fish killers have their own set of concepts , good backing in reverse , and speed speed speed, but not much in accomidations.

    Find the person with years in a particular specialty , it should pay off better than a scatter , take every job , designer.

    FF
     
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