cost to have boat designed

14 replies?

14 replies and not one single answers the original question: "how much?"

 

A complete answer requires a complete question. That is the problem with most questions here.

 

As an attorney around here I both sympathise and have to tell you that your lawyers were probably doing you a favor in killing the deal. I know it sucks, but all of that work back in forth goes a long way in protecting you in the event something goes wrong. The trick is to fina a lawyer that doesn't need to run up their billable hours but is still interested in your protection.

Just a few problems I have seen from people not having good legal advice:

An engineering contract where the NA was personaly liable if there was ever a problem with the design. Not just his corporation but him personally... meaning that his house was on the block if there was an error... I mean kudoes to the buyer for getting it, but it sucked for the designer.

Companies that take all sorts of goofy liability on, most of the time without knowing they did. Like being on the hook for all attorney's fees for the defense side including the builder, design firm, suppliers, ect... all because they didn't have a good attorney read the contract.



Of course there are some attorneys out there that just want to run up their bills, but they are rarer than you might think. JUst remember that we are professionals too, and that just like there is a reason for doing tank testing or destruction testing, even thpough it may be expensive, there is a reason we do things the way we do. It may not make a lot of sence to outsiders, or it may look like a waste of money, but often times it is cheaper on the front end to prevent a problem than it is to solve one later.

 

Not exactly. If someone ask you how much a house is, you would probably answer (if you lived in Portugal) "usually something between 150K and 300K euros".

It is evident that you can find a "house" for less, but then it would not be what most people consider a place to live, but rather some old bricks. It is also evident you can find a house for much, much more, but then it is out of reach for "ordinary" people, and is considered a palace or something similar.

What you would probably not answer is something like "a house can be painted blue or white and it can be made out or brick or wood". Because that is *not* what was asked.

So, I find it rather amusing when someone makes a question, and all the replies resembles those of politicians that does not want to answer a direct question.

Ok:

1. I have seen complete "off-the-shelf" projects sold for USD 2-3K;
2. I have seen a NA ask USD 2K for complete projects including eternal royalties (total transfer of copyright);
3. I have seen NAs ask USD 100K for the same as above, but with the right to build only 1 boat.

The latter ones are NAs with world recognition, considering that boat will have a high future resale value just because that particular NA signed the project. Which does not necessarily mean it is a better boat than a boat made by another (less known) NA.

I would guess you could be looking at something between 2-6K depending on complexity and with the current economic climate I would reckon it should not be difficult to find a NA willing to transfer copyright ownership to you, if wanted.

Have fun!

 

I have to agree with EddyJ's post, but with a caveat. Stumble: as an attorney you can fill this entire thread with the pitfalls contained in that last sentence. As a robotics engineer even I can see quite a few. For a start, if the NA isn't careful he might inherit liability for every unit built to his design no matter how badly. I would not like to design something that would get built without my oversight on construction and assembly.

I should clarify that politicians did far more damage to my work with far less benefit than lawyers. However, there has to be some goodwill on both sides; once one gets into nit picking ...

 

I couldn't disagree more with Eddy's post.

If you want a price for a house, a custom house, a tract house a semi custom house you need to have an idea what's in it, sq. footage, extras, will it have a fireplace, carpet or tile, varnished woodwork or will painted do. In other words, plans. You have to know what to cost.

I have a custom built house and the price didn't get finalized until all the contractors could agree on the bids they'd tendered after studying a complete set of plans. No one said, "well, it'll be in the 150 grand range" they wouldn't dare, in case they might be held to it.

I've never seen a designer surrender his design protection without a substantial fee. I have never given it up, though limited production runs and reality fees have been endorsed.

The original poster will not get anything close to a reasonable estimate, until he provides something to quote on. If you want a ball park figure, a fair guess would be 2 to 7% of the completed yacht's value. This of course isn't saying much, but as Tom pointed out, there's considerable information lacking in the original poster's question.

Had the question been something like "I'd like a general idea what a 40', power cruiser, intended for blue water passage making, sleeping 6, with a classic down east trawler hull form, capable of 1,500 miles+ cruising range at semi displacement speeds, carrying an inboard diesel, built of single skin vinylester might cost" This would be a reasonable question, though rather vague, a ball park figure could be provided.

This isn't what was asked. What was asked is how much does it cost to have a house designed by an architect. We can assume he meant a house in the USA, but little else, possibly by an American architect. For what it's worth, in the USA a house could be as little as $50,000 or several tens of millions and this is a ridiculously wide range to choose from, where only grotesquely inaccurate figures could be offered. Since most engineers don't do well with terribly inaccurate calculation, the question has been side stepped to a degree, possibly waiting on the original poster's retune to add more information.

It was in the high 50's today and damn cold Matt, but at least I could stay warm as I melted lead for ballast most of the day.

 

PAR- High 50s to you is 10-15 C to us Canucks, at which point we're still wearing T-shirts and walking along the beach.

On topic - Eddy, Kevin (mojo) et al, I honestly don't think one can get any more specific than has been discussed here. Not without a lot more detail.

The design of a hull shape is only one component of a designer's work. His scope probably also includes the structural engineering of the hull. If there's a rig, he'll be designing that too; if it's a powerboat, there's the drivetrain and fuel system to consider. Are the electrics part of the designer's scope? How about the piping systems? Interior styling? Hatches and ports?

At some point in the process, a line has to be drawn defining what the designer's scope covers, and what will be done by the builder or purchaser. The designer will obviously charge more if he is asked to design all the systems- and take responsibility for those designs- than if he is asked simply to pen the lines for a hull that someone else will build and take responsibility for. For a 40-something foot powerboat, the difference between the cost of having a hull shape drawn up and the cost of a fully engineered, detailed design of all systems could be an order of magnitude or more- and several months.

So, in order to get even the vaguest idea what the design itself will cost, a clear design brief is needed as well as a clear scope of work.

 

In fact it was not the cost of building the boat that was asked, but the cost of the design.

Me bringing up the cost of a house was only ment as an example, and fact is, if you want the price of making a project for a house, then it is even easier to give a rough estimate!!!

I have not long ago submitted a project to build a house, a project that involved the drawing of the house, all kind of engineering projects for water, electricity, steel reinforced concrete, insulation, gas instalation, heating, and a lot of other sh** that does not make too much sense to me, but no building licence is granted unless it is complete when submitted.

Before deciding who I would comission to make the project I asked a few architect offices how much the project (drawing + all other compulsory items, which they must know which are to be in business) could cost and noted the following:

1. One did not want to give a fixed price. I assume they as far too expensive and out of the run. Absurd. I make boats and nobody comissions a boat from me without getting a fixed final price, so if I want to stay in business I have to be able to give a fixed price. All architects must know +/- how much work it is to make a project for a house, take or give a few hours.

2. A couple said if would be aprox 10% of the total building cost - which for me is absolutely absurd! What the heck has one thing to do with the other???? If I choose to use more expensive building materials, shall I then pay more money to the chap that made the drawing of the house????

3. Three others gave me an estimate (actually almost the same) based on the size of the house I wanted to build. Only based on the size of the house, nothing more.

The initial question here was for an estimate of how much a projecto for a 40ft boat could be. It should not be very difficult to give rough ideas/estimates. Noone will put someone else in jail for giving an estimate, and possibly not be able to give a 100% correct figure.

Having said this, I do not design boats in the sense that I make the drawings myself, I contract NAs to make drawings according to my indications. I make a rough drawing, and they make the rest. It costs me a few houndre bucks and the design is mine for ever. And yes, I know what I am doing and so do they.

 

CORRECT!!!!

So the answer is........................

1. If you want a basic drawing it could perhaps cost .......
2. If you want engineered this it could perhaps cost......
3. If you want engineered that it could perhaps cost.....

Easy. Just an estimate. Just an idea.

People call me every single day (ok, ok, every now and then) and ask me questions like "how much could it cost to build a 10m RIB?".

And I say: "without motor, depending on specs, it can be from X to Y."

Then they have a rough estimate and can decide if they want to talk anymore about it. Why should I tell them to come see me, discuss details for months and then the client gets to the conclussíon it is too expensive. Months work completely down the toilet.

Gentlemen, if you are afraid of giving rough estimates, then you are far too expensive.

 

I personally don't think comparing houses design to boat designs to be very appropriate.

It is easier to price the design of the house because the vast majority of houses are very similar (variations on the box) . If you were to approach those architects and ask for an estimate for a house design of such and such a size but of double geodesic (say) form they would probably be much slower with an answer.

With boats the cost of the design has to do with the degree of complexity involved (usually but not necessarily increases with size) and this can be a very variable factor indeed...So it is understandable why boat designers are not going to come right out with an answer to a very vague general question.

I am finishing building our house now to my own design. As i've never built a house before i made the drawings like i would boat construction plans, so i would not have any problems following my own instructions. That is, with each and every piece of wood drawn in to scale and labeled. I have yet to see house plans like mine! I think the effort was worthwhile- after using about six plus cubic meters of wood all the offcuts and sawdust would have fit into just one wheelbarrow which was my intention, to maximize materials efficiency.

Sure a boat designer can give a price window estimate but only with a very precise question and set of requirements.

 

The guy asked roughly how much it would cost to design a boat. He didn't say a yacht that might be anywhere from 25 to 150 feet and could use power, steam, sail or galley slaves. He said "a plywood chine similar in build construction to peter snell's easy line of boats but as a trawler power cat in the 40-44 ft range." Sounds reasonably specific to me.

The uncertainty, as Eddy points out, is where does the NA stop; at the lines or at the last screw and fuse or someplace in between. A boat is not like an automobile, it's more like a house, which is not defined to the last degree so that every one is identical with interchangeable parts, but is defined so that the major bill of materials is complete and construction can start at an experienced facility. We're speaking of a one off here, not an entire subdivision of houses, although even there the drawings would not specify the location of every screw and nail.

Mojomfg: I assume you wanted a set of drawings complete enough that you could go to a yard and have it built. I also assume that you expect the designer to be involved in the building process to the extent necessary to ensure compliance with his intent. Is that correct?

Now all you NA's; if Mojomfg says yes to that, do we have enough data to bracket the design cost, with clarifications and caveats if you like?

Back when I was designing, I had a piece of software I had written calibrated using data I had compiled on a number of high-tech programs from Space to mining that could bracket the cost of a new program within a 3:1 spread consistently. These were new technology, never been done before jobs with massive uncertainty. I would expect a much closer spread for an established business such as boat design where the size and type of boat is specified together with the construction method and a related example provided.

 

to be a little more specific i want a catamaran in that 40-44 ft range

ply on frame construction
20- 21 ft beam
3 ft draft
powered by 2 outboard motors ( keep it simple ) 60-75 hp each 250lbs each
range of 600miles at a cruise speed of 15 knots ** im not sure if these
numbers are feasable or not**
hull type undetermend planing,displacement ??
it would be great if the hulls could be de-mountable but i realize this is
far from a minor feat ,but i having a 30 by 60 ft building thats being unused
as opposed to finding a place to complete the build 40 minutes away
may make it worth the extra cost if its feasable

not really a trawler but i want a maximum amount of interior floor space
I dont need plumbing and wiring drawn out but i do need
to know the locations of tanks and other items that would affect the cg or balance point whatever NA;s call it

 

The point is that most of NA's are careful to give any quote to the builder before checking his background. Average designer does not want someone building shity boat to his design (and making changes!), without his supervision and finally giving bad reputation to designer.

 

In fact it was not the cost of building the boat that was asked, but the cost of the design.

This too will vary with the type of construction. Steel or aluminum is a simple plug and play for most programs.

Wood is well known , so is cheap to design (but perhaps not to build or maintain).

Grp , solid or common foam , not too hard , esp with most cruisers need for extra scantlings.

Light weight ? Now there the cash to design it starts to flow really fast.
AS far more complex analysis is required .

For your desire of ply on frame , there should be plenty of stock (low cost) plans.

FF

 

Peter Snell's design has living space pretty high on the priorities list. Kevin, do you prioritize living space highly too? If fuel efficiency is a higher priority the shape would change quite a bit. Take apart cat is not a big deal but again it won't necessarily be a platform cat.

How many people are you intending to have on the boat?
Is it going to be a home build?
How much stuff (personal items + amenities) do you intend to have aboard?
Is the boat going to spend most of its time in port or will it be doing passages with considerable frequency?
Why do you want a cat instead of a tri?