construction plan opinions needed for my proposed boat project

[El_Guero]

I like the idea of a 'model' square sailer. You could do a lot with one of those, just for fun.

But, you are building tall sides, and what they used to do to balance all of that was use a lot of ballast ....

Could you use a flatter keel and bottom? That would also let you use the boat in shallower waters ....

OK, I finally got to thinking about this.

Use electric propulsion. Primarily use batteries as ballast. Use sails primarily for 'looks.' It looks like your crew might be of the smaller variety, and this would reduce true complexity. Have a 2 hp outboard for backup.

I would say about 22' in length, around 4' beam at water line. Use plywood for the skin, use black (even just paint) to get the more traditional 'tar' look the old ships had.

Use two bilge keels.

The first 16' would be two plywood sheets laid almost flat - introduce some curve in the width - maybe 2 inches on each side, or go with slightly narrower and more curve?

But, make the bottom of your hull very flat on the bottom, with a very narrow radius curve - laminate 1/8" plys together after you get them bent right. You could get 'rocker' by adding a some 1" sheets in the middle (outside) of your hull and plane down the front and rear edges?

This actually sounds like FUN.

wayne

 

[blsmith29651]

Hi, your idea is interesting, but you seem to be a little inexperienced on the water. I would suggest to try regular sailing first; maybe as a guest or by attending a (practical) course. You may find that you hate it, or you may find that a different type of boat suits you much better.

You are so correct, I have zero experience sailing. My only experience with boating and being on the water is a 14' V-hull fishing boat I have that used to be my fathers. Love fishing, but since moving to a place on a lake, I've found I just like being out on the water also. I am looking at a few cheap small sailboats on ebay as maybe a kind of introduction to sailing kind of boat and like you said, get some experience.

 

[blsmith29651]

I like the idea of a 'model' square sailer. You could do a lot with one of those, just for fun.

But, you are building tall sides, and what they used to do to balance all of that was use a lot of ballast ....

Could you use a flatter keel and bottom? That would also let you use the boat in shallower waters ....

OK, I finally got to thinking about this.

Use electric propulsion. Primarily use batteries as ballast. Use sails primarily for 'looks.' It looks like your crew might be of the smaller variety, and this would reduce true complexity. Have a 2 hp outboard for backup.

I would say about 22' in length, around 4' beam at water line. Use plywood for the skin, use black (even just paint) to get the more traditional 'tar' look the old ships had.

Use two bilge keels.

The first 16' would be two plywood sheets laid almost flat - introduce some curve in the width - maybe 2 inches on each side, or go with slightly narrower and more curve?

But, make the bottom of your hull very flat on the bottom, with a very narrow radius curve - laminate 1/8" plys together after you get them bent right. You could get 'rocker' by adding a some 1" sheets in the middle (outside) of your hull and plane down the front and rear edges?

This actually sounds like FUN.

wayne

Flatter bottom would be a good thing for like you said, being able to use it in shallower water. At my dock, the water is about 4' deep. The lake in general is about 35' deep.
I like the idea of a flatter bottom, but one of the appeals to the old ships is the elegant curves so at least above the waterline I'd like to retain as much of that as possible.
What are bilge keels?
I agree with the electric propulsion being the primary source of power and yes, I don't plan on much of a crew and as someone else here commented I'd probably be going out alone more than with a crew. There are several fabrics out there that have a very open weave that would give the look of a sail, but not be very functional. You might be able to use that on some of the sails for looks and then make a few functional sails for ease of use. Would the boat be able to sail with just the back sail and the front triangle one I think called a jib and let the square sails be fake?

 

[Milehog]

If you want a four cornered sail consider the very practical balanced lug rig. I have one, it is a delight and looks good. clickey
I have designs of turning my 3 year old grandson into a boater. The other day he asked his folks "When are we going to buy a pick-up?" They wanted to know why and he said "To pull the boat!"

 

[El_Guero]

Milehog, you got him started young!

Now you need to get him into models he can sail in the bathtub .... a square rigger would be a good start for him and for blsmith.

 

[El_Guero]

blsmith,

You can place 2 keels, usually smaller, on the sides of the vessel. These are called bilge keels - I think ....

But, back to your boat, take a modern tugboat design at about 22'. Use the bottom for your boat, and build in curves above to look like your square rigger.

And with only one square sail in the middle, you could even use a real sail there. Take it down when winds are unfavorable, or just leave it furled all the time.

The electric 'assist' will make everyone think you are sailing all the time.



Get one of the designers on here to help you with the finer design elements.

But, leaving a bottom flatter will not hurt you much from the stern up to just past the middle. From there you can bring it to the bow. Some wave cutting, but enough flotation that if one of your sailers ever decided to 'hang from the yard arm' like a monkey, you won't end up wet.

 

[HakimKlunker]

I am looking at a few cheap small sailboats
... get some experience.

You may be surprised. When I began sailing some thirty years ago I had a good idea what boat I want. A little later I was glad that I did not buy it. Today I would even hate it.
You seem to be very busy with the car anyway ... ... when do you want to make a boat? Sunday afternoon is not long enough .. heh heh

 

[HakimKlunker]

I have designs of turning my 3 year old grandson into a boater. The other day he asked his folks

Nice sort of grandson. He is under way. My son steered our small boat when he was three (and when there was little wind...) You can imagine how a sailing father feels that moment

 

[Skyak]

Flatter bottom would be a good thing for like you said, being able to use it in shallower water. At my dock, the water is about 4' deep. The lake in general is about 35' deep.
I like the idea of a flatter bottom, but one of the appeals to the old ships is the elegant curves so at least above the waterline I'd like to retain as much of that as possible.
What are bilge keels?
I agree with the electric propulsion being the primary source of power and yes, I don't plan on much of a crew and as someone else here commented I'd probably be going out alone more than with a crew. There are several fabrics out there that have a very open weave that would give the look of a sail, but not be very functional. You might be able to use that on some of the sails for looks and then make a few functional sails for ease of use. Would the boat be able to sail with just the back sail and the front triangle one I think called a jib and let the square sails be fake?

I read this post and I think some clarification would be useful. You want a craft that looks like a 'tall ship' and you are asking how it might sail -but we still don't know what the ship is, or what you are attracted to. You have reacted positively to some tall fat round hulls and square rig sails-those ships sailed poorly -specifically they could not make progress to windward. The reason these ships were built was to carry large weights and volumes across oceans and this could be done primarily downwind by sailors whose wellbeing was never a concern. It is not surprising that these ships often wrecked on lee shores -their maneuverability was awful. These hulls evolved from Dutch barges -if you like the hull but not the sails look at these.

These are not the only 'tall ships'. There were ships built for speed and maneuverability -Clipper ships, and pilot schooners come to mind. These had more streamlined hulls and sails (gaff rigs) that hung fore-aft. These are the boats that excite sailors because of their excellent abilities. Boats that needed to operate near shore had to have maneuverability so their sail plans and hull forms followed this function. Check out 'iriish hooker' or 'Chesapeake skipjack's. Sailing for pleasure naturally followed the plan of more capable craft and racing refined them. When sailors think of beautiful historic sailboats they think of Herrshoff, Alden, and later S&S and the classic J-boats.

You ask if your proposal can be sailed -without seeing it all I can say for sure is it will certainly go down wind slowly. Square sails are useful downwind. If you want to go upwind you just take them down. Take a few minutes and look at some of the boat types I have listed above -if you are going to sacrifice sail performance for looks, what do you want it to look like? Include a picture and the size you intend. To help you discuss sail plans look at http://www.boatdesign.net/wiki/Sail_plan

With this information we will be able to tell you how the boat can or will perform.

 

[michael pierzga]

Since youre from the Chesapeake Bay , you might check out the plans for

Pride of Baltimore.

If you are going to build a boat it should also be beautiful

http://todd.mainecav.org/model/pride/photos.html

 

[PAR]

. . . You have reacted positively to some tall fat round hulls and square rig sails-those ships sailed poorly -specifically they could not make progress to windward . . .

This just isn't correct Skyak. Yes, compared to a modern, fractional sloop, optimized for windward work, yeah a square rigger is hopelessly disadvantaged, but not only did they (square riggers) get to windward, but did so surprisingly well. Of course, as you point out, this is dependent on the hull form and rig choices, but Surprise (for example) can sail to 60 degrees, likely being able to pinch down through a 110 degree tack if necessary. A modern approach to hull and rig design, could likely get this down to 100 degrees, which will be better than some (antique) fore and aft schooners and ketches.

 

[El_Guero]

Since youre from the Chesapeake Bay , you might check out the plans for

Pride of Baltimore.

If you are going to build a boat it should also be beautiful

http://todd.mainecav.org/model/pride/photos.html

Beautiful, but I think he wants about 5 times that size ....

 

[Skyak]

This just isn't correct Skyak. Yes, compared to a modern, fractional sloop, optimized for windward work, yeah a square rigger is hopelessly disadvantaged, but not only did they (square riggers) get to windward, but did so surprisingly well. Of course, as you point out, this is dependent on the hull form and rig choices, but Surprise (for example) can sail to 60 degrees, likely being able to pinch down through a 110 degree tack if necessary. A modern approach to hull and rig design, could likely get this down to 100 degrees, which will be better than some (antique) fore and aft schooners and ketches.

Yeah I when I wrote that I figured someone (you) would feel compelled to contradict it with some examples that deviate from the norm. I know there are boats with square rigs that can sail at better than right angles to the wind in some conditions. I am sure that some fore-aft sail craft has been built that was less capable windward than some square rig boat. I am even more sure that there are many of these square riggers that wrecked on lee shores because of the ships poor sailing abilities. I also know that almost any tall ship scaled down by a beginner (builder and sailor) is going to result in a boat with a dangerous inability to sail up wind and that someone should point this out to this guy since he is asking and concerned about his physical abilities deteriorating.

HMS Surprise has about as good a hull shape as you will find in tall ships. The fact that it is surprising that it can sail to within 60 degrees (marginal) to windward validates my point. Scale it down to 16ft and I doubt it will sail 60 to windward, can't tack, and it will be terrible for a beginner. In their judgement and mine 'IT CAN NOT SAIL TO WINDWARD'. Take the same hull and rig it as a sloop, a yawl, or a schooner and it can be sailed to 45 or better and tack through the wind.

So PAR, what square rigger sailboat are you recommending these days for beginning sailors with physical impairments? His budget is $3000 to $8,000 -what portion of this would you need to design this square rig craft ...and cover your potential liability?

How close to the wind can a J boat sail? A pilot schooner? A clipper ship? And would all of these tack through the wind, even scaled down to 16 ft?

 

[PAR]

Any scale down of these ratios (J boat to 16'er, clipper to 16', etc.) just isn't realistic, for oblivious reasons. Though it would be possible to have a simple brigantine or brig or a topsail schooner or even a sloop or cutter with a captains hanky. You get the look of a square course, maybe some advantage with fore and aft rigging too.

Hanky partly furled. In this configuration, really just an aesthetic contrivance.

No flying, but a more efficient approach.

About the size the OP is looking for. What point of sail to you suppose this is?

 

[SamSam]

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About the size the OP is looking for. What point of sail to you suppose this is?

18 feet is the maximum length allowed on his lake, that looks much larger.

I'm wondering how good the sailing will be on a lake like the OP's, surrounded by low hills and forest.


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