Concrete submarine

[pamarine]

Even given the language barrier and therefore the translation into English, and after reading through Mr. Ellemer's Site and his posts on both this and the psubs forums, I am reaching the conclusion that this is an elaborate sales pitch for a product which is still largely in the concept phase and has yet to see sustained, repeated scientific testing as to the viability of the concept.

I have no doubt that it is possible to build a submarine vehicle using concrete and have it be equally as safe and reliable as a steel or composite vehicle or similar specifications, however, I do not believe that Mr. Ellemer has provided any verifiable data showing his product meets even the most basic of safety and construction requirements as set forth by the USCG or industry standard practices.

It would strongly benefit Mr. Ellemer and his current and future endeavours to adopt an attitude of a layman instead of that of an expert and seek sound engineering counsel from a Naval Architect that is experienced in the design, construction, and operation of submersibles.

[BWD]

yo ellmer, how's the pinata?
Bagged a babe inside it yet?
Is the couch long enough to sleep on,
or just long enough to "hang out" on?
Inquiring minds wanna know....
ROTFL

[wellmer]

Originally Posted by BWD

yo ellmer, how's the pinata?
Bagged a babe inside it yet?
Is the couch long enough to sleep on,
or just long enough to "hang out" on?
Inquiring minds wanna know....
ROTFL

Ha Ha, I like your picture of the piñata - i am hanging around, everybody is hitting me with a stick to look what info sweeties fall out...very sharp social observation!

I assume you refer to the couch in the 3D sketch of the sub. This was more a testrun (to check on google sketch up as simple visualisation tool) than a serious "interior design".

It is a open concept - that leaves interior design completly to the owner. We deliver a bare hull with basic diesel.



Barren flat floor, ballast and tanks below, engine room divider.

The room equivalent is a 68 squaremeter apartment - so i assume there will be a "berthing area" long enough to sleep well.

Maybe a ROV pilot corner...



As i have been advised on this forum i should leave things to the experts. So if there is a skilled 3D animator listening - a flashy interior 3D would be great!

My advisor board is filled with civil engineers, nautical engineers, but what i really need to move this concept properly forward is a visualisazion ARTIST... to make the "dream part" work.

And a shipyard that applies better to our needs than the one we are currently building in... And a engineering team where civil engineers and naval engineers understand each other... and... and...

Typical management - always ask for the "short version" from the engineers and gives a lot of thoughts to "going market", financial, promotion, vision, concept, teamwork, - this drives "tech people" completly nuts - i understand that - but this is how things work.

That was the issue # 8734 of Ellmers bubbles, hogwash, snakeoil report.
of course decorated with the same worthless pictures and Kindergarten renderings.

Has anyone seen any hard data by so far?

Just one simple reply to the many serious questions?

Peers, you will never get any valuable answer from this guy.

He does´nt have hard data!

And he does´nt need data:

My advisor board is filled with civil engineers, nautical engineers, but what i really need to move this concept properly forward is a visualisazion ARTIST... to make the "dream part" work.

Artists is what Ellmer needs, ARTISTS

Mates, I´ve seen a lot of bold and barefaced salesmen, this one beats them all.

With one exemption if we are lucky, they sold their cr@p, he might not sell his coffins.
The prospective buyer of a real private diving boat will notice that his prospective business partner is a "dumbold" (as dumb as bold).
So, lets hope we can rely on evolution, to sort out what is´nt worth to reproduce.

Regards
Richard

[wellmer]

Originally Posted by apex1

.. hard data ... serious questions...


Artists is what Ellmer needs...

Richard

Richard, i am surprised that somebody who identifies as "independent developer" in the yacht industry, seems to have a hard time to understand the importance of dreams, vision, and artwork in this field.

what more hard data than built and sailed submarine yachts can i give you?

what are the serious questions you are still missing anwers for?

Originally Posted by wellmer

Richard, i am surprised that somebody who identifies as "independent developer" in the yacht industry, seems to have a hard time to understand the importance of dreams, vision, and artwork in this field.

what more hard data than built and sailed submarine yachts can i give you?

what are the serious questions you are still missing anwers for?

No boy, you do´nt get me down on your level!

I did not ask the important questions, but Knut for example.
Which concrete?
That was plain and basic, and even for a complete layman easy to answer, just you did´nt.

Nowhere you can find a statement that I am a "independent developer" IN THE YACHT INDUSTRY!
I am, but building Holiday resorts, and industrial plants. And I own yards.


So now, come on with the first proper reply.
I ask you here, which sort of concrete did you use for the black structure you show so excessively in this thread?

And, please do not try to tell me the same nonsense you told Knut:

use the best quality to calculate

There is no "best" quality, as there is no "best" steel, wood or resin. It all depends.

Regards
Richard

[wardd]

why is it that this is the only place i've ever heard about this vessel?

Originally Posted by wardd

why is it that this is the only place i've ever heard about this vessel?

A good question, but he does´nt answer good questions you know!

I was a nasty bastard, today. (only today)
I watched the "who´s online" list before I posted my question, and did it again for the next 12 minutes after posting.
Guess who was watching the thread all the time, but did not reply???
Ahh come on guess again...............
At my time zone, the time stamp for my post was 04.28 btw!

[bntii]

Wellmers approach is one of marketing an ideal- he presents on his site that he and others involved should not participate in discussions which seem to question the viability of this concrete submarine movement.

I don't believe he realizes that 'marketing' in this industry includes a though presentation of the engineering and design in proposals.

Our Wellmer has some rather broad reaching ideals about the revolution which he is leading.
From his site:


"We see ourself as the motor, inventor, developer, of the concrete submarine movement, and envision a future of multiple appliances, business opportunities, and people having a lot of fun submerged following the visions of Jules Verne.

Problem and Solution

To speak with Gorbatschov there are always things that are "part of the problem" and things that are "part of the solution".

Like for any movement there are things that are part of the movement and things that are part of the resistance.

For us anything that is part of the movement is welcome, and anything that is part of the resistance is "not desireable".

Therefore there are things that we embrace - and other things that we are not so happy with.

Discussion
As a movement that is implementing new things we get a lot of questioning - in some cases we do not enter in endless discussion processes with skeptics.

This is not because we do not have the answers - it is because too much controversial discussion only paints a picture of "problematic" to the public that in itself becomes part of the resistance.

As we are interested in increasing the movement - not the resistance - we sometimes pull out somewhat of discussion and prefer that our submarine yachts do the "talking" in the end.

In general terms we are interested in a productive discussion process. We do not pretend to convince the last hard headed skeptic that concrete submarines are a great idea..."

Ok, lets see what is behind the stupid mask!

I asked a friend to get me some insight. Here we are, all in all about twelve different activities, and at least three different stories!?!
I do´nt post what is´nt in the net, but that´s already enough.
enjoy peers:

http://imulead.com/tolimared/ellmer/english/

http://www.exportid.com/website.html...illaexport.com

http://www.alibaba.com/member/ellmer/aboutus.html

http://suedamerika-manager.blogspot....n-manager.html

http://www.exportid.com/index.html?i...ilfried_ellmer

http://www.psubs.org/webforum/Blah.p.../m-1183130265/

http://imulead.com/yook3/shipchandler/

http://latinindustry.biz/

Impressive häähh?
With unfinished medical studies at the university Innsbruck, and jobs as a sales representative, a nice career.
Much of it just as the sinker unfortunately. A fake........

[Knut Sand]

I've received no exact details for concrete properties yet.

In one of my latest posts, I stressed that the word "must" was used in relation to structures exposed for pressure (thanx to Bntii).

A much simpler thing to study; here is the PCCP versions;
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...a%3DX%26um%3D1

Show a picture of a pipe, they state up to 1500 mm in diameter and pressure up to 16 bar. (What's the thickness? then...?)

And still THEY (eehhh, well, similar manufacturers) screw up:
592 case studies, PCCP lines burst, and floods or problems with drainage/ watersupplies:
http://www.waterresearchfoundation.o...e.aspx?pn=4034

But I bet that to manufacture a a concrete pipe to hold for internal pressure is far more complicated than manufacturing a submarine... ?

Sorry, that was not very constructive....

Wellmer; if you look at submarines with windows, these are often scattered around on the hull's surface, ok, it is often to make it possible to look in as many directions as possible, but it's also the strength factor; on any pressure vessel (pressurized tank) it's a "nono" to place a number of significant holes in a longitudinal line along the shell/ sarg. Apex, "the steamer" , will in fact understand my concern for that issue, very well. But probably not expressing his concern to this issue in a too diplomatic way.

I agree with willmer that stress/pressure/diameter is linear functions, though I'm not as relaxed to it as he seem to be.

So; mine concerns/ questions, so far (but not limited to... (I use that frase sometimes....):

1. Concrete quality/ control/ documentation/ (documented)properties
2. Shape, an elliptical shape probably needs a thicker hull than a cylindrical shape, elliptital will also be a bit more difficult to manufacture. The hulls shown have larger diameter than needed, just for headroom?
3. Steel reinforcement; It's used in studies the word "must be prestressed", the documentation or the building site does not show any of the equipment I'd expect to see (I'd make an inner hull, wind it up like a bobbin, with steel wires, tensioned.....then outer layer of (more) concrete....). Where's the numbers for convincing me that this is "SEP" (Sound engineering practice/ Somebody else's problem).
4. The windows, in line, for max stress impact? These are placed by a person not too technically orientated, just a wild guess..... There is a reason that sub designers doesnt like windows, if there are any, they're small. and scattered around. There is a reason for round shaped hatches too (with outward dented shape); the ability to withstand pressure, you've showed a "doorlike" hatch?
5. I'd be a bit skeptical to place the water tanks for diving inside the hull too.. One valve malfunction, and your'e not only looking for a "landing site" you're swimming doing it... The sub's internal will also have to handle the pressure change due to change in internal volume, the shape shown for the water tank will not hold any significant pressure.. That's significant again...
6. I'd have a "strongback" /keel made for impact, really MADE for impact, really, really...etc. I'd build for a hard landing. I.e, a specified no's of "g's"...

So please clarfy, Don't bother to explain how the sofa came inside, the ones hung up in unimportant things like that, have probably never been at Ikea...

[hoytedow]

Yeah, the windows lined up on the side are like the perfs separating sheets of toilet paper, so at least you now know the lkikely line of hull failure.

[bntii]

I believe that diving depth has been preempted by ambiant light into the interior for this 'show piece' Wellmer yacht. Two strings of ports on the TOP of a submersible! Any failures with these ports and this thing is a dead duck.
Dock side appeal... where have we seen that before?

"So i am sure that as soon as we get the boat (we are building for Ian right now) to water and
move it up to california (showing it to the public in each port) - we will end up with dozends or
hundreds of orders. Simply because the questions "can it be done", and "can it be economically
viable" will be definitifly answered with a 200 ton 18m long YES - and everybody can see it - no
doubt about it."
W. Ellmer 2008

"If you build a better...



Some sort of a mantra for inventors no?


Dozens or hundreds of these things floating around? Those not run down by ships will be a hazard to every small craft in the area.

When he launched his first coffin in Austria 15 years ago, he made similar claims and statements. Fortunately the world did´nt notice.


Knut
may I bet some 5€, that you will never get a proper answer on your basic questions?
Well, I would like to win 100€ instead of 5, but who is crazy enough to bet against?

[bntii]

A beer in the local pub is always a serviceable wager.

Perhaps we surface dwellers will be the minority 100 years from now- we were here folks to see the beginnings.

Well not really the beginnings...



Any concrete experts here?

I take delivery today of 6 tons of block and bagged mix to rebuild the concrete wall under my house.
Shattered by the bit of lateral load imposed by the pressure of the water in the soil along side..