Concepts for Self-righting Aluminum Center Console

[ratrace2]

I see some clear themes developing here:
a). Know how to handle the boat
b). Don't go out in bad weather
c). If you "screw-up" (a) and you do (b) there is not much that is going to save your sorry ass.

Well done guys.

Rat, It's just that there probably is no silver bullet. Aggressive marketing could sell some boats like you describe - I don't mean to dissuade you from that. Good luck, too. I am a consummate tinkerer, myself, and have been shot down hundreds of times. It's healthy. If you can show me to be wrong, you've probably got a winner!

[Knut Sand]

The boat I was rightening was this:

http://www.norsafe.no/index.php?aid=3104

There's no reason why, something like this couldn't be used for non-rescueboats, in my opinion... Removing the lifting hook will only improve inverted handling.

But then again, chrashing boats is fun.... Pretty close to the most interesting job I've ever had...

I have to admit that some people that works/ worked at that company is probably among some of the best boat handlers that can be found.

The thing is the get inverted bouyancy, that makes the boat unstable in this position, (err... why I partly distrust some (not all of them, but some) RIB's as the Bladder on the gunwale is pretty difficult to "sink" into the water, resulting in excessive lifting force needed to lift the oposite side out of water.

The room in the cc can be used for a crampy bed, going under the floor area in front, a ****'n carry toilet, things that don't weight too much...

If I manage to attach some pic's this is not the boat in question, but another one, 60 hp outboard, fixed bouyancy bladder, on the pic notice the height of the gunwale aft from the water in the inverted position, the bladder lifting the engine and the boat, in this area. The cc is closed, and used for equipment, and tank. The front deck contains no bouyancy, so the front is somewhat down, but not too much. One man (me) in water could righten this one, no hightech moving parts...

And the statement that you'd probably not be able to restart; there are kill switch on the engine, killing it when about 90-100°: Same for inboard diesels (but of course a bit different), restarting is not too difficult.

One problem will be sale, the persons you are adressing these kind of boats to, are probably also considering the professional boats for this issue, boats that's already there on the market, and have a reputation. Selling these kind of boats to persons who think they can handle any boat in any kind of weater. Is probably only giving you problems. People who are used to handle these boats, can handle them in pretty severe conditions, while another person might get problems at waves eceeding 0,2 m... that's when your problem may really start, if that person bought your boat.

There are persons out there that doesen't understand the fact that life is given to you without any guarantees, while death is guaranteed... They should not be out in any boat in almost any kinda weather, your problem is that a concept like this may attract some of these....

[ratrace2]

Knut:
The problem with that design is that all of the weight is in the back--with the engines and fuel--it's working to your disadvantage. You have to lift the front; so, you can use the weight in the back to help "twist" the boat when the flotation in the bow becomes unstable capsized.

If you move that big Orange thing up front and use it as a radar tower/inflator --or whatever--it would be more effective.

[ratrace2]

Originally Posted by mark775

Rat, It's just that there probably is no silver bullet. Aggressive marketing could sell some boats like you describe - I don't mean to dissuade you from that. Good luck, too. I am a consummate tinkerer, myself, and have been shot down hundreds of times. It's healthy. If you can show me to be wrong, you've probably got a winner!

Not at all, you guys are the best.

I have no intentions of building and marketing this boat for the general public.
I couldn't sleep at night with "these" issues surrounding something that I was responsible for.
I do however want to apply some concept of this technology to one of my own boats.

Thus, since I don't consider myself an "able seaman" I like to plan for trouble and put in place safety features that help the boat survive under the worst possible conditions and "unforseeable" circumstances. In other words, I want to "stack the deck" in my favor when it comes to safety features.

Also, I want a boat but I know I'm not a great--or good--boat handler, so in order to have a fighting chance, if I screw up, I put a crab rail on the stern, install water tight doors, add additional flotation. Make everyone with me wear a "personal lazer beacon".

I have no problem with going as far as buying some old Military style one man pilot rafts and have them deploy in a "knock down", senario.

[Submarine Tom]

ratrace2,

I would encourage you to persue the positive buoyancy route, this is a

much greater asset than self righting, given the complications. Check out

the Canadian and USA 47 foot life boats. They take on about 350 gallons of

water in a roll over and require the forward hold (AKA the "anti-gravity

chamber") be kept empty. I appreciate and admire your intensions and

hate to discourage you but my thinking is the collateral damage from a roll

over is great and ones efforts might be put to better use in saftey

equipment and training/knowledge/experience. Join a Coast Guard

Auxilliary unit or better yet the Coast Guard (big difference) and I think in a

short time you'll appreciate what I talking about.

-Tom

P.S. The orange righting bag shown is tiny compared to the one on the 6000

pound Zodiac 810 I'm familiar with.

[Knut Sand]

Originally Posted by ratrace2

Knut:
The problem with that design is that all of the weight is in the back--with the engines and fuel--it's working to your disadvantage. You have to lift the front;

If you move that big Orange thing up front and use it as a radar tower/inflator --or whatever--it would be more effective.

The boat in the pictures IS unstable in the inverted position, we had difficulties to place it in the inverted position for this test....
Fuel tank is fixed in the center of the boat as far down (or up, if you like..) as possible. So when the gunwale starts to roll down into the sea, the bladder aft gives pretty good momentum to righten the boat. Placed aft (bladder, fender) as it is, it also rises the whole engine above water in the inverted position, gives you some time to "plan" the reentry operation, like wind/ waves. Don't have to lift the front, it's ok wet... (to lift the front, more weight in the rear, or more bouyancy in the front, will probably cause the engine hood to stay vet/ soaked), and an engine that gets fully soaked can be a problem to restart.... (been there, done that...).

So, looking at the engine issue, the big orange thing is pretty perfect placed...

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by ratrace2

The problem with that design is that all of the weight is in the back--with the engines and fuel--it's working to your disadvantage.

It's just the opposite.. Like Knut says..

[Knut Sand]

Originally Posted by Submarine Tom

Join a Coast Guard Auxilliary unit or better yet the Coast Guard (big difference) and I think in a

short time you'll appreciate what I talking about.


P.S. The orange righting bag shown is tiny compared to the one on the 6000
pound Zodiac 810 I'm familiar with.

Guess what's said here and other posts above; practice makes it safer. Also a good way to meet these problems is to avoid them, I got to admit I sometimes find some situations more interesting than others, but then I've also more or less prepared/ planned for them....

Zodiacs, have really large volumes of bouyancy, in the gunwales (ehhrh, and everywhere else too....), also in the inverted position, which makes them pretty stable upside down also. To righten; one gunwale must be lifted enough up of the water to start rightening, there is no way that the other side will find its way down into the sea.... Therefore; rightening bags for RIBs needs to be bigger (more in the way, catches more wind, etc...).

[ratrace2]

OK, I got it...yea, I like that alot.

[ratrace2]

Originally Posted by Submarine Tom

ratrace2,

I would encourage you to persue the positive buoyancy route, this is a

much greater asset than self righting, given the complications. Check out

the Canadian and USA 47 foot life boats. They take on about 350 gallons of

water in a roll over and require the forward hold (AKA the "anti-gravity

chamber") be kept empty. I appreciate and admire your intensions and

hate to discourage you but my thinking is the collateral damage from a roll

over is great and ones efforts might be put to better use in saftey

equipment and training/knowledge/experience. Join a Coast Guard

Auxilliary unit or better yet the Coast Guard (big difference) and I think in a

short time you'll appreciate what I talking about.

-Tom

P.S. The orange righting bag shown is tiny compared to the one on the 6000

pound Zodiac 810 I'm familiar with.

You Mean Like This:

I could get in real trouble with this.....

[ratrace2]

I think I'll track one of these boats down and have a better look:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...d.php?t=127488

[ratrace2]

Looks Like Fun.

That series of pics is a good example. Looks like fun to someone young. Looks like "I'd like to avoid it" to someone with family and responsibilities.
That boat should have given itself searoom to begin with and if in the spot they were in should have seized the opportunity to charge the wave before it broke, chopping the throttle upon just assuring passage without flipping. Then skedaddled. It's as if they were trying to be in the worst spot in which they could be - probably training.
Personally, I would take a smaller, more nimble boat into that surf (only to save lives), ride the back of a wave, grab a victim and make a decision to beach if you have to (unless too rocky - you would be amazed at how high and dry one can beach and how soft the landing by riding the back and goosing right as the wave turns to foam under. This requires practice, BTW - Kids, don't try this at home!) or bolt laterally and pick a non-breaking point to climb back out of hell. Nice pics. All bar ports suck, at times but Morro Bay just plain sucks.

[ratrace2]

Mark775:

Driving through that stuff with a boat that big is an "art form".....

I don't think--I don't know--if you could teach that to someone who don't "get it" in the first place.

I was just thinking, could you imagine building that kind of capactiy it the average sportfisherman?? Cobo, Viking, Witicar, Viceum, Luhrs?

What do you think would happen? Would we be any better off for it??