comment on rudder

Stuart, you made this statement twice in this thread, and I cannot recall saying that. What I did say was;
"Dudley Dix is perhaps the designer with the best credentials around and possibly the most well known steel designer in the world."
Please get your facts right my mate.

and assumption is the mother of all ****-ups...

for whats its worth. The gap between the skeg and rudder is actually 8mm and the skeg partiality overlaps the rudder shaft - if one puts a straight edge across the side of the rudder and skeg horizontally, it is exactly in line not to disturb the flow across, and yes, the skeg forms part of the rudder foils as it becomes one complete foil together.
Secondly, the gap on the c/l between hull and rudder is actually 70mm and REDUCING to 60mm when turned to the stops at 35 degrees. At the shaft the gap is 25mm

And for the cracker - the shoe of the rudder is actually loose in the picture and the Vesconite bush removed, and caused the rudder to hang about 25mm lower than it should be.

As to the reference to bog, also commonly refer to as mud, fairing compound etc - the photo used here was taken just after the hull was shotblasted and bare of any crap on it - it is actually very easy to built a fair hull.

Lastly Stuart, you had taken a photo of my work and used it to raised some dust about the design, my clients preference of what he want by assumptions you made, quoting one wrongly more than once and to this I object.
The least you could have done before starting this thread, was to ask me if you could use my photo for your your intended purpose, and then I would have gladly given you the data as mentioned above without you making assumptions.

Nevertheless, you are missing the point. It is not what you think is a great rudder or not, if it is a good designer or not, but what my client wants. That is all that really matters.....and it is a cruising boat and he is on record elsewhere here stating he does not care if it is a little less effective than a spade.

 

What the hell is all this about?

The pros and cons and full skeg hung rudders vrs spades are well known and each will be chosen on it's merits to do the job required. One driving factor when making the choice is the personal preference of the owner. Many cruisers, especially those commissioning steel boats, express an overwhelming desire to have a full skegged rudder. I have designed dozens of steel boats and built many more, but not once has an owner been prepared to sacrifice the security of having a full skeg despite being offered alternatives. People build in steel because they are drawn to the notion of belt and braces and these sorts of people like skegs. A designer who wants to sell steel boat designs will know this truism.

There is no reason why a skeg hung rudder should be difficult to steer and some of the easiest and sweetest boats I have owned have have been configured this way. In fact Olin Stephens has claimed that a full skeg is the only seamanlike arrangement for a cruising boat and his Yankee 30 design steered perfectly, needing only a little Navik vane to remain 'hands free' in 25000 miles. Similar boats such as the Contessa 32 are also renown for their ease on the helm.

I have spent a fair bit of time with Dudley Dix and have no doubts about his abilities. To denigrate him is entirely unnecessary, extremely impolite and inclined to reflect badly on those throwing the dirt.

 

thats too bad Craig(what the hell is thsi all abt) if you had read the whole bit you would see that the gap over the rudder top, is what it is all about
Who is throwing dirt, I dont rate him, you do, simple, you did not answer the question about the rudder, but talked of skegs I dont think the rudder is good you apparently do
how can I rate the guy if he as Wyn says did a rudder like that? and Wyn says he build exactly to plan
i will say and have said the boat looks fine, he has a niche market, but he is NOT the second best designer in the world, if he were, he would be up there making trillions along with frers, dubois and a hundred others
i am afraid that is what rattled me!!!
cheers

 

the bog thing?
All hulls have bog, thsi looked like it had none,
you did make the statement, abt second best designer, fact
forget it
i am not talking abt the skeg gap at all, the gap btween the hull and rudder top, should be paint thick , on cl
How much sailing have you done ? Stop please thinking I am attacking you, I am not at all you probably build a fairer boat than I, even though I never use stringers
One thing Craig said that is true, steel owners and builders, are stuck in a groove, not really using the strong points of the medium
You made comment abt Corten and how you thought was highly over rated?
In holland the other day, met a guy who builds big and fast power yachts, , 56 foot, he uses 4mm corten he says it pulls like mad, ii guess has similar heat disappating qualitys as ss , poor,
i think same boat in 10mm alloy would be better
Cheer up and calm down) I dont want to scrap in here

 

Rudders

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that rudder from the picture. You may want to check out the discussion on rudder failures on metalboatsociety.com for info on structural design. A skeg drasically improves the stall angle and structural integrity of a rudder. I once saw some tank test results in Sail magazine that showed that a spade rudder which stalls at 15 degrees without a skeg ,doesn't stall at 30 degrees once you put a skeg in front of it. Thus a skeg drastically improves downwind control and self steering possibilities. I prefer putting the rudder outboard to drastically simplify trimtab self steering and trimtab inside steering, but this rudder is as good as any inboard rudder.
Sounds like you have been listening to someones biases rather than good info.
Brent

 

Also worth looking at regarding this boat how the fairness is achieved and the pros and cons.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=24066

Lazy you mentioned mech engnrs before. Designers like Ted Brewer employed Mechanical Engineers in his design office and they were involved in his designs he just had a Westlawn diploma same as Dudly Dix.

Crag
What sort of steel boats have you designs for ?

 

Again Stuart, your fact is wrong again and I will repeat again what I wrote on the other thread and hereby I rest my case.
If you disagree, please, for the benefit of others and myself, show me where I made that statement - don't shy off.

"Dudley Dix is perhaps the designer with the best credentials around and possibly the most well known steel designer in the world."

Over and above the Westlawn paper, Dix has other technical qualifications as well. He engineered the radius chine method to a fine art as can be seen on all his hulls by using a constant radius throughout. Since the early 1980's he is actively involved in steel designs and is better known for his steel rather than his fibreglass designs. OTOH, he is represented (visit his web) in more than 50 countries and I would say that gives him a lot cred in the steel boatbuilding circle.
Never has his designs being questioned (all designs in excess of ABS scantlings rules) or his boats having rudders fall off as is the case of that other well known designer in your part of the woods....

The best steel designer in the world - no, best credentials and most well known steel designer, yes for sure.

 

Brent, for once I'm in agreement with you. Nice comment

 

LJ - Wynand is correct - he didnt say Dix was the second best - he is "Dudley is without question the foremost designer in steel". is that first?

All pretty academic really - I would be in the queue for Wynands boat, no question on the great job.

I am bloody relieved that other comments supported my understanding that the skeg increases rudder effectiveness - I have come to doubt my mental condition in occasions.

One question Wyn - is the skeg a flat plate, or is it made up of two curved surfaces in this design?

 

ah so now you promoted him to 1st
That is plain hogwash , I suspect one day you will find out, but then he keeps you in work, so you award him blue ribbon?perhaps you should visit the HUIsman site, or the alloy yachts, OR , Oh this is daft, to say this guy is best, did you build for others?
And Brett keeps you in nice comments?
The skeg does detract, , if it enhanced performance then top proper race boat and top proper architects would be using em
Wyn after you have been 20 years in the business, come back and revisit your comments) bye bye

 

Rwatson,

the skeg is part of rudder - meaning both together forms one foil - similar to an aircraft wing and aileron if I can use that as an example simply put.

LJ - I distance myself from your remarks and assumptions, but for your information, I had built my first boat way back in 1981, then a few as you had, operating from a small holding. I turned pro in 1988 onwards. That gives me 27 years in the business and here I am back.

In total I had built 19 steel hulls from 7.5 to 20 meters LOA, some with spades, others with partial skegs and full skegs. What you prefer is your business, what others prefer theirs. I personally, would fit a transom hung unit on a small boat or on a bigger steel boat a full skeg if building for myself.

I suggest you get something to do to keep you sane and leave others to their own devices. bye bye

 

Smile you have not yet grown up my boy, you think steel boatbuilders are something special you fight between yourselves as to who is best
And you call me insane? WELL PAL, WHY DO YOU SPEND SO MUCH TiME ESPOUSING YOUR VIRTUES HERE
should you not be at coal face?
Nah wYN YAH LET YOURSELF DOWN BY SayinYOU ARE YOUR ARCHITECT BEST IN WORLD, YOU ARE OK, TIDY BUT YOU HAVE NOTHING SPECIAL
It has all been done a hundred years ago there are a 1000 people building boats like you do, stringers , **** all skills, attack me and you will be strung up, my son,
did you not tell me you wer in mines to later age? and you are what 40?
and you built this yacht in 81? oh Christ the crap that goes down here, ya know I do not know of one working builder who posts in here
For me, yes I,m bored, but I never ever made the sweeping stupid statements you make,
I was a good builder, but I know there were finer ones, and I look up to them
you are not and will not be one, yet, you could be, but first you must open your mind, and appreciate the skills that have been there long before
if you can not do this then you are indeed a Boortrekker
Come to think of it your history, it does not stack up? at all. this is one lil world and all you say here can be checkkkked out
Nah I am araid you just joined the SAFEWALRUS club)






PITY
CIAO

 

So, all this discussion was not really about rudders?
It's just a personal war between you guys... You could as well continue with private messages, right?

 

LazeyJack, I believe you think you are god's gift to people...just do your own thing, leave others alone and personally I believe you are an ******** who has a personality problem, so typically of the geological area you from, cricket payers and other sportsmen comes to mind. Secondly, you have no manners and need I go on?

Got tired of BS and now looking for another scapegoat for your sick mental abnormality. Got news for you, get of my back, and back in your hole and I will keep to mine. I really want to go down to your level with insults and ignorance, but something in me just make it seems so wrong - possibly to do with upbringing...

As the only boatbuilder posting here, so it be. I do not scrounge for work, like a recent incident where a person addressed me for costing and you invited yourself in. Don't you have any decency in you?
Perhaps it is best I do not post here anymore if it makes you feel like a king then, but I really have boats to built rather than to put up with crap like you.

As an public forum, I believe with your tactics and attacks on other you have no idea of diplomacy and good manners and you have no place on such a place. If Jeff feels like banning me from here being honest and frank in my reply to you, so it be..but that would not change the fact that you are a super ******** or as we say in my language, "'n groot poephol"
And please, learn to spell my name.
Wynand signing off from this thread for good.

If I insulted some decent Australians when addressing LJ, I sincerely apologies.

 

Wynand I sympathise with you... But these two statements are diametrically opposed and bigotry is so ugly. No matter how rude and twisted Lazyjack {edit change can to might appear } 'might appear' to be. We should keep things more seemly and leave that sort of langauge to PM's .

And he is by the way a New Zealander so the bigotry is even misplaced. { edit } Correction neither NZ'er or Oz. Most likely Uk then !