The client is always right...?

[Willallison]

There is always room for improvement. So any design will have room to improve based on experienced gained with it.

...any boat except one designed by you surely... for yours is "the best of the best"... no compromise


As for Japanese imports, I'm no historian, but have a feeling their adoption had more to do with cost than culture. If that were not the case, then we would all still be buying Japanese rather than the (now cheaper) chinese stuff that floods our markets

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Willallison

...any boat except one designed by you surely... for yours is "the best of the best"... no compromise


As for Japanese imports, I'm no historian, but have a feeling their adoption had more to do with cost than culture. If that were not the case, then we would all still be buying Japanese rather than the (now cheaper) chinese stuff that floods our markets

If you go back to the economic coastal cruiser thread you will see that Erik is now contemplating a Chinese made diesel. He has to decide if it will meet the same standards as those from elsewhere. This gets down to quality.

What I can advise him is that the Chinese have the lowest conversion costs. Many of the business there have learnt the lesson on quality and how it is important for return business. He needs to determine if that it the case with the particular engine manufacturer.

The Japanese motor car industry continues to survive. The UK does not other than those owned offshore. The Japanese quality systems are now widely adopted throughout the mining industry in Australia. (Look up "Lean Manufacturing") The Japanese built systems around Demming's concepts and have spread them across the globe - although not to the majority of vocal participants on this forum.

Rick W

[xy2010]

No customer no job,no job no life

[Alik]

OK, let's talk about customers: some of private customers should be asked for mental health certificate before comissioning a design/build.

So, who say customer is always right???

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Alik

OK, let's talk about customers: some of private customers should be asked for mental health certificate before comissioning a design/build.

So, who say customer is always right???

He is not your client until you are engaged to do the work. Prudent people will do the checks to make certain they can work with the client - also they have the backing to pay. It is not a one-way arrangement. You have to make an offer. If you do not like the client don't make the offer - your choice in the first instance. If you enter into an arrangement on a half-hearted basis then you are doing a disservice to yourself and the client.

Rick W

[FAST FRED]

"We do live in a democratic society and let go with the flow...."

A democracy is 5 wolves and a sheep voting on lunch.

FF

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

A democracy is 5 wolves and a sheep voting on lunch.

So true.

[dskira]

16.67% yes
83.33% No
Obviously the poll tend to see that the client is not the ultimate authority.
Depend the client I suppose.
Let start from the beginning:
Is it possible for a shipyard or designer to survive without a client? No.
Obviously the client has to be respected.
Not like British Airway which was saying: "The customer is a necessary nuisance"
Somebody took British Airway lately? Pretty bad, they are keeping their motto to the dot!
Our client is a man or a woman who is ready to spend from several thousand dollars to several millions dollar. That is not a plane ticket. that is serius money.
My way to see it is the following:
If the client is impossible in his demand, and stick with it, I dump him or her.
If he or she come with some good point, but I disagree with them, I challenge myself and go ahead.
I learn a lot from the client.
"From my ivory tower, the guardian of all the knowledge" some client teach me a lot, from going down from my tower, to the fact that knowledge is nothing if you can't accommodate some differences which will challenge what you know.
I realize very early that my word was the binding contract, and be in time and in budget was more important than all the gimmick I can put on a design.
Not respecting this simple rules, it hurt the client, and it hurt the only real "marketing" I can have. My word.
I am not better that other NA or boatbuilder, I have a style, the client come to me because of that. If they come to me for a trimaran, or a modern sailing boat or high speed motor boat. I send them to an other more qualified NA in these field.
I respect the client, and for me, yes the client is king, as painful he can be.
He allow me to be free, to be independent, as strange as it sound.
I had two female client, for large boats, it was interesting and they are far more thorough and grounded than a lot of male counterpart.
It is too easy to blast the client, when things goes wrong. It's like blaming the weather when you sail in a rough weather.
And yes from my experience 99% of the client respect the payement schedule discussed at the start of the work, and no I never had a paper contract in my life, beside the one when working on governement contract.

My two cents
Daniel

[Landlubber]

....welll your two cents worth is actually worth , well at least more than two...Thanks.

[SeaJay]

The customer may not always be right, but he's never wrong.

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

The client who is always right deserves what he gets

Well said!


And to add that:

there is NO perfect boat out there! Not a single one, no matter for which purpose it was designed.

ALL of the clients which purchased these millions of boats, expected / assumed / hoped to get a perfect boat, they were all wrong.

All of the designers and builders were, and are, wrong, if they believe they could produce a perfect boat.

So, how can one of us assume the client is always right? Not even we are!!!

Regards
Richard

[ancient kayaker]

Originally Posted by apex1

... there is NO perfect boat out there! Not a single one, no matter for which purpose it was designed.
...

That is a key point, and very few boats have a single purpose.

There is always a degree of compromise. Typically a buyer will want some comfort, performance in a range of conditions, a modicom of safety and a measure of durability.

Maybe the design of a one-way, single-use sailboat aimed at breaking the absolute speed record is the only truly specialised sailboat. Thinking of sailrocket's efforts, it is difficult to consider a boat that seems to break up during every serious run as perfect.

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

That is a key point, and very few boats have a single purpose.

Terry,

(but mainly meant as a general statement)

there is no boat out there which can fulfill the promise of the designer!

You know that, I know that. WEknow that.....

At present I am sailing a tiny massproduction boat through the Agean Sea, a 50ft Bavaria.
This boat is the best selling charter boat in the entire world.
The yard is known to be the best efficient mass producer in the entire world.
They bake it like bread.
They sell it like bread.

The boat is ****.........

I am doing this test now for 8 consecutive weeks to know what the average (sailing) boat is like.
On many occasions I have seen boats of twice the price, sometimes 4 times the price, built to lesser quality.

ALLLLLL of the clients buying these boats thought they have bought a good boat.

To some extend they were right. These crappy junks are sufficient to fit their needs.

NONE of these boats are seaworthy !!!!!

I have not found a single one mass production boat (except those ugly Amel cruisers) which was capable to sail a single mile without getting into trouble when there would be a severe condition.
All of them are "sufficient" to have a nice day trip from one bay to the next. None of them (included the forementioned Amel), is worth talking a single word when it comes to serious passagemaking. Most are not even worth talking as a liveaboard while moored.


ALL OF THEM WERE SOLD ACCORDING TO BUYERS DEMAND AND SPECIFICTIONS


ALL of them fit the clients purpose

(having some fun from secluded bay to bay)


The buyer is right?

The average (knowledgable) buyer is just a idiot, knowing nothing about going to sea, knowing nothing about hard sailing. Capable of doing the planned trip even in bad conditions, yes, there are some, count them on the fingers of your hands.

There are the pro´s........

they manage a ocean passage in a few days. But they accept to **** in a bowl which never will handle toilet paper! Accepted standard on ALL boats worldwide.

There are proven, and reliable systems out there, do´nt they buy them?
No, they accept a "sufficient" yacht standard.

Ask them about the quality of their own boat.

80% will tell you that they are on the best boat they can afford.
We know, none of them sits on a good boat at that time.

I make this test (during the bad period of the year) to get the right answer to the question >why are´nt you doing sailing boats?<

I could have sold a couple of boats, just during these few days sailing and argueing, but refused.

The boat I am sitting on is about 200.000 € ex yard. A boat, I would call good would be about eight to ten times that. And then the customer would have purchased only my phantasy of a good boat.

No,

the customer is always right to start the design spiral, then to lay back and relax.
Do never try to design or build him a perfect boat, you must fail.

Build the best he can afford, build it according to your knowledge and his abilities, and be fine with the 143 compromises you have to agree on. (daily)
Promise him, that you will not make these bloody 43 faults again, and assure him, you will make other 43 on the next building, completely different.

Do not even think about doing a yacht without some 43 faults.


So,

the customer is right?
eat more ****!!! 25 billions of flies cannot be wrong...............

Regards
Richard

[ancient kayaker]

Richard: sounds like the automobile business, except that is much better regulated ...

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

Richard: sounds like the automobile business, except that is much better regulated ...

Yeah! In automobile industry they do the same 43 faults again and again.. so it's kind of regulated