The client is always right...?

[Willallison]

Rick - do you ever actually think about what you are writing?

[Obsession]

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

It is a sad reflection on any professional who takes the view that the customer is usually wrong. Inevitably personal beliefs get reinforced through subtle actions and behaviors.

No one wants to hire a professional who is only a yes-man even if he knows a great mistake is being made. It might be pleasant and easy in the short term, but when the yes-man allows the client to go down the wrong path and the project suffers, who is to blame?

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

If the customer is wrong then it is the the professional who is at fault for taking a combative stance and not spending sufficient time with the customer to gain mutual understanding.

Rick

Agreed there, though sometimes rarely the customer will be thick and immovable in their wrong-idea. The key is presenting a qualified opinion and clear assessment at each stage of the game. If the customer is hell-bent on something that you know will not work, should you help spend the customer's money on something with a very very small chance of success? Only if you are sure the customer understands the situation and after you've done your best to present them with better options. That's my opinion.

[Guest625101138]

This thread will be a useful reference for anyone intending to engage a professional.

Paul B, Landlubber, and TollyWally are currently on the top of the list.

Rick W

[Landlubber]

Rick,

I am saddened to see the "professional" responses to 90% saying NO.
From the comments, there is no disputing that the customer is wrong and needs to be led by the hand and spoon fed, sounds like a politician pushing his barrow for social engineering..they know better than we do for what is good for us.....like hell they do.

....now watch the sparks fly.....

Has the so called professional become that much up itself that it only can see themselves as being of worth......no wonder I dislike politicians, priests, accountants and lawyers, I mght be adding NA's to that list too....

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Landlubber

Rick,

I am saddened to see the "professional" responses to 90% saying NO.
From the comments, there is no disputing that the customer is wrong and needs to be led by the hand and spoon fed, sounds like a politician pushing his barrow for social engineering..they know better than we do for what is good for us.....like hell they do.

....now watch the sparks fly.....

Has the so called professional become that much up itself that it only can see themselves as being of worth......no wonder I dislike politicians, priests, accountants and lawyers, I mght be adding NA's to that list too....

Hopefully your outlook brings you plenty of return work. I know a few of the people who lurk here quietly take notice of these exchanges and will likely have you high on their list, as I do, if they get to the point of ever putting some money on the table for a boat.

A few of the respondents in the business must be comfortable with their present lot because they will not gain business based on comments expressed here - it is a public forum and they have declared themselves. I have copied all the posts so when asked to make a recommendation for a NA I can use them as references.

I know one NA who frustrates me even, because he tries so hard to please. He will try to work a solution long after I think it is not worthy of effort. I think that is the challenge for him to come up with something that was not previously contemplated and is unexpected. It does mean the client has to be a little patient. Actually I was once told by a very good mechanical engineer working on a project under my control that I could not simply crack a whip and yell "CREATE, CREATE". He was making the point that the mental process cannot be forced and my presence was not helping.

It is nice to know there are at least a few here who are not cynical about there clients and give them high regard.

Rick W

[Willallison]

Originally Posted by Landlubber

..they know better than we do for what is good for us.....

Well... yes... that's why you use one.....
You know you're feeling sick... why bother to go see a doctor? Because they are qualified, experienced and are better able to diagnose your ailment....
You know you want to fly from Sydney to Melbourne.... why bother to pay a pilot to fly the plane....

Nobody's suggesting that everything a client brings forth is wrong... and clearly there is a huge variance in the level of knowledge from one client to the next. And nobody's saying they know 'better than you do what's good for you'. But in general, a qualified and experienced professional is likely to be better placed to solve the myriad of design decisions that are involved in designing a succesful boat.

The result of this poll is a demonstration of the experiences of the professionals who have participated in it. There's no sense getting all antsy about it... at a ratio of 20:1 they all appear to support the obviously somewhat tongue-in-cheek statement that I made which sparked all this off

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Willallison

...

The result of this poll is a demonstration of the experiences of the professionals who have participated in it. There's no sense getting all antsy about it... at a ratio of 20:1 they all appear to support the obviously somewhat tongue-in-cheek statement that I made which sparked all this off

I see 20:3. And as more start to think seriously about the pompous know-all outlook of someone who thinks the person paying them is invariably wrong I expect the ratio will change.

I also note you are now watering it down to tongue-in-cheek statement. I can see you are starting to get concerned about how people might perceive your comments about your client relationships. From the comments I have received privately you should be concerned as you have not done your reputation any good - maybe you are so well placed with work you don't give a hoot anyhow.

Rick W

[Obsession]

Your stance sounds good and is well written, and apologies if I don't get what you say, but it sounds a bit of a word game too.

When you say:

If the customer is wrong then it is the the professional who is at fault for taking a combative stance and not spending sufficient time with the customer to gain mutual understanding.

does this mean that you don't believe a customer is ever wrong in their assumptions or orders Rick?

Is "the customer is always right" a literal statement for you Rick? It sounds more a slogan that refers to your attitude only (meaning, the customer is not always right, but rather, you'll work with them until they are right if they enter into the relationship with some false preconceptions.... more like "the client will always be right with me on their side" even if at any immediate moment in time they may be wrong about some details...)

I see 20:3. And as more start to think seriously about the pompous know-all outlook of someone who things the person paying them is invariably wrong I expect the ratio will change.

Trying to cast the other guy as a "pompous know-all" for believing that he may as the professional be correct some of the time and the client may not be 100% right on every order or preconception seems to be an attempt to disparage the other guy's reputation.

[Willallison]

There's nothing watered down here Rick... you will note both in the quotation in post number one here, and from the original post ( #188 economical coastal cruiser ) that there is a smiley face at the end of the comment. Clearly intended as a light-hearted remark
Post #6 in this thread I state exactly the same thing...

I'm not in the slightest concerned about my rep in this matter. I am not even concerned about your propensity to sprout off about about things that you clearly have no real understanding of. What concerns me is that there are people who will read your posts and believe what you are telling them. At best you are likely to cost them a great deal of money, at worst a great deal more than that.

I think this poll - and the one about compromise - are a clear indication that your views are not widely accepted. By the abusive tone of your reply, it is clear that this has upset you. For that I apologise - I have nothing to gain from making you look like a fool, nor do I get any great pleasure from doing so.

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Obsession

Your stance sounds good and is well written, and apologies if I don't get what you say, but it sounds a bit of a word game too.

When you say:

does this mean that you don't believe a customer is ever wrong in their assumptions or orders Rick?

Is "the customer is always right" a literal statement for you Rick? It sounds more a slogan that refers to your attitude only (meaning, the customer is not always right, but rather, you'll work with them until they are right if they enter into the relationship with some false preconceptions.... more like "the client will always be right with me on their side" even if at any immediate moment in time they may be wrong about some details...)


Trying to cast the other guy as a "pompous know-all" for believing that he may as the professional be correct some of the time and the client may not be 100% right on every order or preconception seems to be an attempt to disparage the other guy's reputation.

This debate gets to the heart of quality. The vital concept of quality is that you target zero defects or non-conformances. No one can guarantee that will ever occur but if you plan on having defects then you will get more than if you aim to have none. It is a mindset.

I worked for a long time in the Australian mining industry and we could quantify the number of deaths per tonne produced and we targetted a downward trend each year. I can remember having a discussion with a site manager where I pointed out to him that his injury target corresponded to causing serious injury, maiming or even killing 12 people a month. When you see the stark reality of the target like this you realise how untenable the target is. Clearly the only tenable target is zero.

Back to designing, if you take the view that you will continually strive to prove the client to be correct by meeting or exceeding his requirements then it is going to happen more often than if you take the view that he is usually wrong and you take delight in proving it so. It is not a productive outlook and inevitably you will be proven right - he will be wrong thereby reinforcing your view. It becomes self-fulfilling.

If you have a team relationship with the customer then it is the team that got it wrong not just the customer or engineer. I see this alliance approach being adopted widely in major projects in Australia. It is collaborative and removes a whole lot of legal and administrative waffle that costs a bundle. Even the reward mechanisms are set up to benefit or penalise the team - wins and losses are both shared usually on the basis of a target cost and completion date.

As far as the "pompous know-all" it is the opinion of another member sent to me in a PM.

Rick W

[Willallison]

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

.... And as more start to think seriously about the pompous know-all outlook of someone who things the person paying them is invariably wrong I expect the ratio will change.

Invariably...did I say that?

oh.... and we all get PM's Rick.... I shan't share the language used to describe you...

[Typhoon]

The customer may always be right, but paying someone money doesn't mean you can treat them like a lesser being.
Many customers/clients get the response they expect to get when they go into a meeting.....condition/prepare yourself for an argument and you'll usually find one. Psychology is interesting like that.

Regards, Andrew.

[Wynand N]

Originally Posted by Rick Willoughby

It is a sad reflection on any professional who takes the view that the customer is usually wrong. Inevitably personal beliefs get reinforced through subtle actions and behaviors.

If the customer is wrong then it is the the professional who is at fault for taking a combative stance and not spending sufficient time with the customer to gain mutual understanding.

Rick

I followed this tread with interest and the above reply from you is unbelievable and very very sad.
Sorry to be blunt, but you sound like a politician

How can a professional be at fault when a client is hell bend on having his wishes done, regardless?
Remember the saying - you can lead a horse to the water but cannot make it drink. This is also true to humans, you can show someone the way, give advice etc but at the end he or she can choose to to conform to your views or not and more so, if he had his mind already made up, no professional will change his views. Can the professional be at fault when the client is wrong...?

Im retired from steel boat building now but still run a small GRP boat shop/ repair setup and all my work is by word of mouth and sometimes I cannot get to all the work done. I never advertise. Having said this, I must make it clear that when a client comes to me, he does so for a reason - he needs my advice and experience to have repairs/modification/design done and I will gladly assist him and make another friend (many of my customers became my best friends).
I will listen to a customer of what he wants but when a client tells you what to do and how to when you know best, it become problematic. I turned away some potentially lucrative jobs to get rid of just such a customer. Rather be without some kudos and gold than to have endless problems with a client and stress that can work up a heart attack.

Most of my new customers will name someone whom send them my way and was told that I can be trusted and things will be done right. To me that is a compliment and I am well known as a grumpy man that stick to my guns.

Lastly, the 23 - 3 poll vote (now) speaks volumes. Why would so many be wrong and so few be right. We do live in a democratic society and let go with the flow....

[Guest625101138]

Originally Posted by Wynand N

I followed this tread with interest and the above reply from you is unbelievable and very very sad.
Sorry to be blunt, but you sound like a politician

How can a professional be at fault when a client is hell bend on having his wishes done, regardless?
Remember the saying - you can lead a horse to the water but cannot make it drink. This is also true to humans, you can show someone the way, give advice etc but at the end he or she can choose to to conform to your views or not and more so, if he had his mind already made up, no professional will change his views. Can the professional be at fault when the client is wrong...?

Im retired from steel boat building now but still run a small GRP boat shop/ repair setup and all my work is by word of mouth and sometimes I cannot get to all the work done. I never advertise. Having said this, I must make it clear that when a client comes to me, he does so for a reason - he needs my advice and experience to have repairs/modification/design done and I will gladly assist him and make another friend (many of my customers became my best friends).
I will listen to a customer of what he wants but when a client tells you what to do and how to when you know best, it become problematic. I turned away some potentially lucrative jobs to get rid of just such a customer. Rather be without some kudos and gold than to have endless problems with a client and stress that can work up a heart attack.

Most of my new customers will name someone whom send them my way and was told that I can be trusted and things will be done right. To me that is a compliment and I am well known as a grumpy man that stick to my guns.

Lastly, the 23 - 3 poll vote (now) speaks volumes. Why would so many be wrong and so few be right. We do live in a democratic society and let go with the flow....

You are making an assessment of whether you can work collaboratively with particular customers and choose not to work with those you clearly cannot. So by this selection process you are improving the probability of a successful outcome for you and the customer. That is exactly what I am saying. You aim to prove the customer right by choosing those you can work with. He has made a good choice in selecting you and you have made a good choice in taking on the work. There is mutual respect. You did not enter the relationship if you had doubts about the customer. That is just being prudent.

As far as the vote goes I could frame the question to get the exact opposite result.

Rick W

[daiquiri]

I am honestly undecided on this one because, as a matter of fact, I do realize that the client is not always right when it comes to the technical side of the project - most of the times because he has been ill-informed or guided by prejudices towards solutions he doesn't know much about.
But I need to deliver what he hires me to deliver, if I want to take those bucks home. And that's what I do, at the end of the day. So his ideas/desires etc. might not be right from my point of view, but sometimes I have to act as if they were. I would be a hypocrite if I said that I refuse clients whose ideas I don't like from the technical point of view. I don't do it. But fortunately, most of them come to me with just some vague ideas about what they want, the details are usually a matter of synergy between my knowledge and his/her desires and budget.

I see this issue very much related to this one: Dare to Say No
Back there we have all had a similar discussion, where there were two parties arguing: those who maintained that a client commands - even when he wants to have a fast, fuel-guzzling powerboat, and those who were saying that it is a designer who needs to educate the client towards a more environmentaly-friendly boating.
I believe that the truth must be somewhere between these two points of view, just as it is in this case.