Cigarette Design

Design, building and resources for the Personal Deep-V Cigarette Class

 

I started this thread because I see nothing like it!

Is anyone building a Cigarette class boat? I need some help locating a few line drawings so I can at least get a basic concept of hull design, v-angles, etc. I can find drawings and plans for every conceivable type of boat but the Cigarette. What's up?! Am I just looking in all the wrong places? Help!
Thanks...

 

It's just a thought, but why not find one in a marina and scope it out. Then go home and draw the beast. And worry about Cigarette's lawyers breathing down your neck.
How about plain asking Cigarette? www.cigaretteracing.com

Steve

 

Hi, Steve...
That thought had occured to me but I don't know many people or dock owners who would want me messing around their $250-500K Cigarette boat with a tape measure. And besides, the best part of the boat is below the waterline. I also didn't know that the "Cigarette" name was an actual boat manufacturer. I thought the name "Cigarette" was just a generic name for boats that had that general appearence and dimensions. I just need some general dementions and some idea of acceptable V-angles as a place to start. I think I could take it from there. Like I said, this is not for producton or actual racing. It's just a one-of-a-kind for my own use and enjoyment so my final dimensions would not likely mirror any of "Cigarette's" or anyone elses for that matter. Still amazed that there aren't any line-drawings on-line. Still looking!

 

Bankshot41, just a whisper of warning, OK? The bottom planing surfaces of a truly fast offshore boat, with their attendant strakes and planing pads and steps, are the result of very careful and systematic development over several boat generations by experienced designers who work for companies that jealously guard their designs. Be very careful.

That said, read a whole bunch of books and technical papers on planing hull theory, consider an at-rest waterline plane L/B ratio of about 4:1, and a transom deadrise of around 22 degrees. Another hint: weight distribution and CG is very important.

 

Read 'Understanding Yacht Design' by Ted Brewer. He discusses the differences between deep V's, V hulls, warped plane and flat bottom.

 

Thanks for the info...

Thanks for your input. That's info I can use. As I've said in previous posts, I'm building what I would condisider a "salon racer" if the subject were motorcycles. I'm mostly interested in looks and space onboard. The "big-boys" have nothing to fear from me. I know this probably sounds shallow to serious boat and cigarette class designers but we just want something we can stay in, play in and looks and sounds "bad" goin' down the lake! That's why I said I wanted just some basic ideas of proportion, v-angle, etc..

I fully intend to document all my own testing and research. I'll begin laying out the keel and formers this afternoon with the info you provided. One of my semi-full time jobs is giant-scale R/C model building and I will likely build some eight foot models and tow them with the appropriate tech to measure resistance. When I get one that shows promise, I'll mount the engine and radio gear to see how it does on its own. I know this is not a perfect method and has its draw-backs but it's a place to start. If you or anyone else, for that matter, has a better idea of how to begin, I'm all ears! Again thanks for the info.

 

Hull testing...

I don't have a clue how the "big boys" start designing and testing. The only way I presently know to begin is to build some scale eight to ten foot length models, balance them as near as possible to the ratio expected in the prototype, incorporate some changeable/flexible ideas for bottom design and tow them in various conditions measuring drag, stability, etc. This may sound laughable to some of you in the high-tech design business so if you have any ideas of a better way to proceed, I'm all ears.

After about thirty years in the sign and graphic design business, I do know that everybody "steals" from everybody else when it comes to design work. Nothing is truly original anymore. Someone has usually already done what you're trying to do, is in the process of doing it or will do it if you don't. I certainly don't contemplate breaking into anyone's boatyard to steal dimensions but if I were to accidently come up with something that works, the documentation will be there to show that it's truly original or as "original" as any design can possibly be nowadays.

One of my semi-full time jobs is giant-scale R/C modeling so scaling a precision hull from aircraft ply is not a problem for me. I think what I might need is some suggestions on how to best test it and make use of the results.

In case you're wondering, this is a serious effort on my part to actually design and build the full scale boat within the parameters I've stated. Granted, it's primary purpose is to have fun with the family but at the same time, who wants to spend the time, money and effort to build a dog. This is not just another R/C project. I'm modeling for testing and yes, when I have a design that looks promising, I will put the engine and radio gear into it to see how it does on its own. If that will really give me any insight into the boat's finished behavior remains to be seen and evaluated considering the ultimate weight and balance of the finished prototype.

That's why I joined this forum, I guess. I'm looking for free engineering. But I just turned 63 and probably one good boat is all I have left in me so it's not like I'm looking to go into production. Thanks to anyone who can help with this phase of the design process. As you can see, I'm pretty much playing this part of it by ear. Once the design is finalized, the building is what I can do best.

 

Sounds like a really great project! I applaud your enthusiasm and am keen to hear more about it!

I don't have a lot to offer you in terms of advice, but there are a number of different standards regarding model testing which might be useful... ITTC (International Towing Tank Conference) and SNAME (Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers) papers could be very useful... they tend to deal with more 'controlled' testing situations which would be difficult to achieve in a pond without an extensive budget, but they may introduce some issues that might be of interest... scaling issues for example... time scaling, reynolds n' froude scaling... Similitude is important to consider... speeds don't just scale as the length does... Having said that, I think that your plan to test 8 ft. models could be very fruitful and helpful in figuring out what you'd like to build... It's great to have a pile of numbers, but at the same time a picture's a 1000 words and to make a 'proper' scale model and see how it performs is fantastic, not to mention fun to do on its own regardless!!

Cheers n' best of luck with it all!!

Dave

 

Thanks for the info, Dave...

Thanks for your interest and the info you've (and the others) supplied. If any of you happen across any additiona info, Id be happy to receive it. I've come to realize that the reason there is so little info for this class of boat on the net is the appearent level of competition among the designers and builders of this class, even those who build for the pleasure boat market in this class.

For whatever it's worth, I will post pictures of my model and any line drawings and tech I generate myself to try to fill this appearent gap in info for others that might want to venture into such a project and all for free.

One of the other major considerations is power. Cost and technology dictate something along the line of twin big-block Chev's or even Hemi's. In my hotrodding days, I could build a Chevy in my sleep so that's my first choice of course.

Where there's some additional consideration is how I connect the crank to the prop(s). Anyone have any ideas on drive systems for this class? I think the drives, for what I'm building, need to exit the hull on either side of the V but where in relation to the transom. How far from the keel, etc. Keeping in mind that I need to do the production myself as much as possibe.

I'm sure much of this stuff is appearent to many of you and it seems like it should be to me. I took a class from a local wood carver a few years back, sculpting in clay for carving Indian and Cowboy busts to ultimately transfer to wood. But I wanted to carve a Redtail Hawk. He was sure he could help me so I took the class. After about three days into the class, both my instructor and I realized that neither of us really knew what a Redtail Hawk looked like; so having paid for the class in advance, I had to settle for learning the finer points of manipulating the clay and using the sculpting tools.

I'm finding this project is beginning to turn out like that class. I'm taking nothing for granted even having built runabouts with my father for about twelve years. I'm just going to look at this like it's a whole new ballgame... which of course it is!!!

I have a 42" metal lathe and a medium size bench mill, tig, arc and oxy/acet welders so again, some detailed drive info or where to find it would be appreciated all the while knowing that anything like V-drive gearing, I'd have to spring for. While I have and can make patterns and do some aluminum and brass casting, that's way out of my league and way to time consuming to say nothing of the necessary engineering. I'm thinking more of some of the complementary parts, i.e., angles, support brackets, etc. that could be produced in my small shop on the theory that a dollar saved is a dollar to spend on something else. Thanks again...

P.S. I need a spell checker here... my spelling sucks... please forgive!

 

Powerplant

You may be able to save yourself considerable time by using Mercruiser engines. They are properly matched with their outdrives and propellers depending on horsepower. You can purchase off the self engines up to 1075hp. Another benefit is that Mercury engineering will help you dial in the installation. There's usually some trial and error with x-dimension (drive height) and propeller selection. Mercury has been through it before and if you are buying their engines, they want it to work right.
Engine installation can be side by side or staggered. In general the closer together the engines the better. This way the props see cleaner water. Docking may get more difficult as a result but you only do that occasionally. Pick up a copy of the latest "Boating" magazine. They have some good info on speedboats. (July 2004 issue)

I've designed several 90+ mph boats. Forget Ted Brewer. Get you hands on old "Hot Boat" issues and somehow get yourself behind the wheel of as many high performance boats as possible in the length you are building. That's where you learn. Go to boat shows. Collect information from every manufacturer you can find on length, beam, hp, fuel capacity, speed, transom deadrise and decide where you need to be on each catagory. If everyone has 22-24 degrees at the transom, this tells you don't use 18 degrees on yours. That's what we professional designers do.

John Connor wrote a piece about model testing which describes a method you can use. Obtain all back issues of "Professional Boatbuilder". They will answer some of your questions or at least be a starting point.

You are not trying to tweek the extra knot out of a go fast design or win an offshore race. If you stay within certain guidelines you will be fine. Good luck.

djs

 

Hi BankShot41
It seems we are trying to achieve similar goals. I own a 19 ft version with 300 hp and it is lots of fun. Now i wish to build a 24 - 28ft version and there seems to be a vucuum of designs to work from. I have 20 years of experience with this style of boat and it was a steep learning curve. All the expensive expert advice prooved to be useless! I also have a similarly equipped workshop and am going to build my new toy out of aluminium. How are you going with your project?
Regards
Derk

 

Sonny Miller has the Cigarrette boat he and Don Johnson set the world offshore speed record in '88 with. The hull is custom build from the original molds. It is much stronger, lighter and extra fair. The engines are out, but it still has the original paintjob and decals. You can call him at 954-257-2289 or 229-776-6015. I think it would be way cheaper than building a one-off. Also, it is of superior quality to the production boats.

 

Right now, it's a son-of-a-gun...

Hey, Dek...
In the four years we lived at our previous address, I somehow managed to acquire enough tools and machinery to leave me absolutly no work space. So... we bought a new (to us) and bigger home. Been in it now about eight weeks.

In addition to all the hassel that just goes with a move, I'm having to run sing. phase 220 from the other end of the house to the shop area, build a heavy 28 foot work bench, determing where everything is going to work best and find everything to do it all with and everything is either lost or "stolen"! I'm about to go nutsoid.

Looks like I'll be through with all the necessities in about another week to ten days. I'll have about a 15' drawing easle at that point, I can start drawing some full scale plans for the 10' model. Ten foot seems like a good size (shooting in the dark) and when I'm finished with it, I'll air brush it out and sell it for a big-boy toy to help with the $$$.

Lest any one get the wrong idea, I'm not extremely wealthy. I'll be looking for used drives that I can overhaul and building the engins myself. But then, that's part of the fun for me. I'm not at all averse to getting my hands dirty.

Thanks all for all the encouragent and the info. I'll try to upload my line drawings for critique. Maybe someone will spot a serious flaw if I'm about to make one or maybe I can get a majority of go's if it looks good to most of you.

Hope this makes sense... I'm so weary from all the re-establishing of a home and shop, I'm about to nod off while I write this.

'til next time... Bob (nearly out of it) in Battlefield, MO, thirty miles north of Branson and Table Rock Lake.

 

Why on earth would you want that old antique design?? You know of course the original Cigarette hulls had a horseshoe shape to them ;Looking to the chine at transom was actually narrower than say station 5 and the strakes also tracked inward a real “no no” by now days Thinking ,Where every conceivable effort is to generate all bottom elements parallel with the keel. LOL or water flow...

Not mentioning the bow flair was for an older mentality “heavy boat” and the strakes wrapped around the stem knee like a killer fig not really conducive to a high speed hull where one would generally like to travel in a straight line.