Is It Cheaper To Motor Or Sail

Steam boilers had an almost uncanny ability to explode no mater what the early designers did to try and ovoid it.
Modern mono tube boilers seem to have eliminated the issue but high pressure steam is dangerous. Its the one aspect of steam that has always a concern.

 

" The commuter design was never intended for waters with lots of trash in it. at least not logs and icebergs. I notice on a lot of the commercial boats in the area there are high and forward pilot houses."

A couple of points, the inside passage is fairly iceburg free Open deckspace is quite valuable on many work boats so the wheelhouse gets shoved to one end or the other. The ride suffers when the house gets pushed forward. The old time boats had steering stations similar to your dreamboat. The galley was often stuck in the foc'sle along with berthing. As the boats got more power they got more beam. With the additional beam, houses grew higher,the galley came upstairs, and along with more power came hydraulics which shrank crew size and berthing requirements.

Visability isn't as good as you think on many of those boats. If it bugs you work in a flying bridge or a tophouse. If you take a close look at many flying bridges there isn't much there. Where visability is a concern you'll see minimalist crows nest steering stations. Nobody ever uses them because the motion is so bad.

It's not uncommon when traveling to run 24/7. To a certain degree you're rolling the dice, you're not going to see a low slung deadhead at night in a storm. Sometimes all you can see is periodic greenwater through the windshield and indistinct blips on the radar. It usually works out.

 

Here is my opinion.

I've run about 80,000 miles under power, and about 80,000 miles under sail. Big, little, oceanic, coastal, simple, complex, my money, zillionaires money.

A sailboat is basically a powerboat with a lot of complex and very highly loaded stuff on and above decks.

Costs are:
Depreciation: same for same quality
Slip: same for same LOA (150% to 200% more for sailing catamarans)
Dry dock: same for LOA (again far more for beamy sailing vessels)
House System Maintenance: same for same level of comfort/complexity, but powerboats can sometimes use household appliances that are generally substantially cheaper.
Mechanical Propulsion System Maintenance: similar for similar number of engines/generators (but twin engine no generator usually less than single engine with generator)
Sailing Systems: only on sailboat.
Fuel: usually far less than any of the above individual items
Sails: substantially more than any of the above individual items

Therefore, a sailboat costs more than a powerboat.

Remember that sails deteriorate both due to use and just due to the passage of time: a 10 year old sail is close to failure even if it has never been hoisted. A four year old sail on the boom or furler is shot even if never set.

A good friend just spent the last three years "sailing" around the world on a reasonably new 46 foot sailboat. They spent more time under power than under sail. Still spent more money on sails and sailing gear (lines, handles, ...) than on fuel.

 

....so to reiterate,if you put on 200 hours a year in this locale,that is a lot.
At 8 knots that'd be 1600 miles.
Plug your burn rate into that,figure out your fuel costs-and then go look at those pricey sailing bits and figure out how long it'll take to cover them.
And if you can get into the biodiesel run of things (like I did 12 years ago) running is very very cheap.


By coincidence I was talking to a friend in Miami last night.

Turns out he bought a repo'd vessel,the owner was not happy to lose the boat so he blew the Yanmars up.

Now he bought it for a very cheap price,and is either going to do rebuilds or whatever.

I suggested to drop in a couple cheap mechanical Cummins,but he told me he would love to BUT that if the boat is 2000 or newer (which it is) he can't put in the mechanical Cummins for emissions reasons.

So if you're building a new boat and want to plug in your 6.9 and it has to be USCG inspected-you may run into hassles.
Maybe you could buy an older boat and do "extensive reconstruction"?

I dunno the US laws,may be wise to check more.He may be mistaken,I may have misinterpreted.

 

a diesel can almost always pas emissions
its just a mater of new glow plugs and if the rings are still good
after that there really is nothing to adjust
Im not sure why your buddy felt he could not get the auto conversions to pass but that is one aspect I think I have covered
my bet is it has more to do with local laws than national but thats just a guess

 

West there has been something nagging at me, you mentioned towing some lost souls out of a fogged in bay a while back and that they were beginning to run out of food
only tourists would run out of food on one of the richest shorelines in the world
between fishing crabbing and hunting I just cant imagine running out of food there
I can picture dairy products being about the only thing one really needs to buy and even then I dont eat much dairy at all
its not that good for you anyway
how in the world do you run out of food in Alaska
dont these people carry fishing gear

vegetables I bet are expensive but nothing that cant be managed Even so even dried kelp is edible. Makes a nice Miso soup if you have a few scallions and some other things

oh well

cheers
B

 

Thank you for all the information David/ u4ea32.

I want to think that if a longer life sail material were invented (polyurethane sail cloth?) the equation may shift a little, but would it ever be enough?

 

I to was shocked to learn that in my area of interest sail power ends up more expensive

 

Well it was on the BC Coast,not AK.

They had zero idea of what lay 2 meters under and rubbing against their hull.
Only thing you have to watch out for is PSP in the shellfish and there's some very tasty kelp out there.

No traps,no rods,no radio and no sense-but enough money (debt) to afford a 42' sailboat and make it up from Oregon.
But a $9 book on edibles was too much to ask.

One could stash enough dried/freeze dried staples to last for years on that boat....I could live indefinitely in places and still be in contact with the world

BTW was thinking maybe my friend meant that for a production boat he couldn't stuff in an older engine.
Maybe a self-built boat would be exempt?

 

Unless you have lots of money.....small boats are a good way to go...both sail and motor...they are both pretty inexpensive to get out there in...I have got maybe 2,500 bucks or so total sunk into my Hunter 20 ...It's a money hole like everything but It's been good bang for buck so far...I have taken her 70 miles south to Charlotte Harbor and back in 5 days time with my 12 year old kid...not sailing too awful hard.... We cruised about a mile or two off the beaches all day down to Englewood which is 40 miles south from Sarasota. Then we head thru Stump Pass and anchored before dark...camped aboard and headed out next morning with manatees and dolphins for an escort. Then another gorgeous day and 30 miles the next day to our next campground in Charlotte Harbor...I used about 4 1/2 to 5 gallons of gas with the Tohatsu 5 hp 2-stroke... maybe 160 miles round trip ... They both win for alot of us...and folks can go pretty far in one with a decently seaworthy boat and maybe even more importantly are good students of weather...

 

Well it was on the BC Coast,not AK.

They had zero idea of what lay 2 meters under and rubbing against their hull.
Only thing you have to watch out for is PSP in the shellfish and there's some very tasty kelp out there.

No traps,no rods,no radio and no sense-but enough money (or debt) to afford a 42' sailboat and make it up from Oregon.
But a $9 book on edibles was too much to ask.

One could stash enough dried/freeze dried staples to last for years on that boat....I could live indefinitely in places and still be in contact with the world

BTW was thinking maybe my friend meant that for a production boat he couldn't stuff in an older engine.
Maybe a self-built boat would be exempt?

 

no worries I guess I just underestimated the idiocy of being on the coast and running out of food
as kids growing up on the cape we often went out early in the morning and came home late having eaten nothing buy cuahogs all day
frankly Im really looking forward to some fresh salmon sushimi and boiled rock crab. Im used to be all about sea food.

oh well was not questioning your honesty as much as I was just surprised anyone could starve staring at so much food
some people eh

one more reason to retire to the richest coastline in the world eh
oh wait
ssshhhh
place sucks
you never want to go there
Im retiring to the bahamas


oh well
cheers
B

 

Wow. Scary. I hadn't realized there were places in Canada where you couldn't walk to a Tim Horton's.

 

I'm a longtime lurker,and haven't really been compelled to post anything but dammit West (and euphoria,matthew)why couldn't you have posted this 5 years ago?Live in vancouver and bought a 43' sailboat so the family could go out on weekends and up the coast on holidays.

We enjoyed sailing around English Bay,Bowen Island and the Straits but
that got boring for me and the family 4 years ago.The problem is exactly how you put it as we've been to the Gulf Islands twice on long weekends because it takes too long and the wind is never right or just isn't there.
Its not realaxing and sucks getting up at 400 am on a saturday just to have enough time to make it someplace and back
We've been to Desolation Sound and close areas on holidays and others may like drifting along at 3 knots but time is hard to make up.

whats this other boat you had that got that mileage at 15 as at 22 knots?
How is it possible?what was your mileage at 8-10 knots?What do you think of a trawler?

I don't mind spending money on moorage if I used the boat but if its a pain to go anywhere thats whenI get uptight to have the money going out with little use.
And there's a lot of money to be spent on the thing...sails,rigging, 2 winches,and the mast needs work.
I'm never going to cross any oceans.

Thanks

 

Rosss...the boat was a Meridian 368 aft cabin.
Assuming Us gallons,the Meridian got:
-2 nmpg at 8 knots
-about 1.1 nmpg from 13 knots to 22 knots.
-about .95 nmpg at 25 knots.

A Nordhavn 46 owner was a bit miffed that I got better mileage at 22 knots than he did at 9 knots.And I had the same or more useable space than him.
The money I saved by not buying a trawler,the interest in a conservative market fund-I could never spend on fuel-never.

Even my 50' gets about 1.5 nmpg at 8-9 knots,and it gets .5 nmpg at 30 knots.
Whereas a 46' Nord gets 1nmpg at top speed of 9.2 knots.
It's all to do with weight,displacement,getting up on plane,etc

So trading your 8 knot motoring sailboat for a 9 knot $$$$$$ trawler that doesn't quite get the same mileage at low speeds (if you don't want to cross oceans) seems to be a big waste of money.
Why spend huge coin on the materials,capabilities,3/4' glass etc that you'll never make use of?And I have the ability to make time,and out run weather.

Myself I prefer aft cabin cruisers: lots of room,seperate cabins,a couple of different outer decks.

Have you tried putting 3 ocean kayaks,traps,rods,dinghy,PWC on your sailboat?