A cape Horn vessel

Originally Posted by M&M Ovenden

If done properly spray foam sounds like an ideal vapor barrier and insulation method for steel boats...but the "if done properly" is very important. I'm not convinced all BYO boat get the job done right. No one would argue that the foam has to be close cell (not sponge) structure. The problem is that higher density foams are not as readily available and more expensive than the lower density ones used in the construction industry. First BYO boat person's mistake: not paying attention to the foam density they purchase for there hull. The other issue is that to spray closed cell foam and make sure it is closed cell it HAS to be done as per instructions and that's not just open the bottle and press the trigger. The success of spray foam insulation system relies on a chemical reaction and unfortunately with quality control done after application, leaving a serious mess if something went wrong. Professional spray foam insulators have specific equipment which doesn't come with the kits; ie: heated guns, temperature controlled containers...In order for the sprayed foam to meet the given specifications the product has to be sprayed in controlled environment, at specific temperature! Not sure it's always done by back yard builders...explaining failures?
An other concern about polyurethane foams is regulations. If one ever wanted to charter with there boat or use it for any other commercial operation, foam could be a show stopper in some countries. Regulations a clearly against flammable insulation products for commercial vessels and I wouldn't be surprise to see the same push for pleasure vessels.
Anyhow, I'm not against spray foam insulation (if properly done) but don't think the stuff should be glamored by marine professionals without the appropriate warnings.
In my case I am a greater fan of Armacell. Two reasons: non flamable and uniform product quality controlled ahead of installation, not to say it is also a successful proven product.

Murielle

Thanks Murielle!

The fact that this method (spray foam) is used less and less by the industry should be a indicator for every homebuilder.
Yes it is (or was) a widespread method, and it had some merits when done professionally.
But it is flammable, it holds odours, it collects water after some time, it is a pain in the butt when repairs occur, and so on and on.
And you are right, the days of it are count, it will be banned sooner or later.

Armacell /Armaflex is by far the better insulation and the only one I recommend for both, the pro and the homebuilder.

Regards
Richard

[capt littlelegs]

Originally Posted by apex1

Thanks Murielle!

The fact that this method (spray foam) is used less and less by the industry should be a indicator for every homebuilder.
Yes it is (or was) a widespread method, and it had some merits when done professionally.
But it is flammable, it holds odours, it collects water after some time, it is a pain in the butt when repairs occur, and so on and on.
And you are right, the days of it are count, it will be banned sooner or later.

Armacell /Armaflex is by far the better insulation and the only one I recommend for both, the pro and the homebuilder.

Regards
Richard

There is no indication that sprayfoam is used less and less and your concerns have been done to death in over 250 posts of the Dutch Barge Association. The foam used is polyurethane insulating foam with Class 1 fire rating to BS476 Part 7., it self extinguishes, there is no odour, it is not put where water is and repairs are no problem. There is no indication that modern sprayfoam will be banned. This is just one typical post:

Hi Jeremy,
Considered that professional foaming companies (eg Hertel) use the same polyurethane nowadays on pleasure boats as they do on offshore rigs, cargo vessels and cruise ships, the concerns are overstated, resp. your yard may reason on grounds of a type polyurethane no longer used as the standard.

When welding you only have to cut off a piece around the welding site, not a big deal – you’d also do that with rockwool. Our yard welded one day after foaming and the removal/refoaming was a piece of cake. Polyurethane is only highly flammable while wet, during the actual foaming process, but it dries over night (the old stuff needed weeks). Otherwise, fire precautions are the same for rockwool or foam insulation (keep water and distinguisher handy, somebody to check inside if welding goes on at outside).
Is the yard talking about the old polyurethane or the new one? The new one is no longer toxic when burned, as a matter of fact, we were able to be in the hull minutes after they foamed, without a mask. It is classified against fire as B2, with a density of 50 kg/m3 and a ‘lambdawaarde’ of 0.023 W/mK. The new stuff no longer smells like rotten fish either. We did 200m2 at 5cm in an enclosed construction hall, and the yard resumed work as normal the following day.

Rockwool plates are, of course, an alternative, but the insulation value is lower since one can simply not insulate all the corners and frames spray foam can. We also had our hydraulic/water/electric tubing in place, so the spray foam automatically covered them, providing additional support.
rgds, Marina

Originally Posted by capt littlelegs

There is no indication that sprayfoam is used less and less and your concerns have been done to death in over 250 posts of the Dutch Barge Association.

Well, being part of the industry, I guess I have a deeper insight.

The entire megayacht scene used sprayed PU for ages and almost all of them went to Armacell.
PU foam does not smell when cured it "collects" odours and holds them for long.

It is NOT impermeable to water as you can see on older barges on a thorough inspection.

Face it, it is just the second best solution (if that good).

And, just as a aside:

we are way off topic here.

Regards
Richard

[capt littlelegs]

Originally Posted by apex1

Well, being part of the industry, I guess I have a deeper insight.

The entire megayacht scene used sprayed PU for ages and almost all of them went to Armacell.
PU foam does not smell when cured it "collects" odours and holds them for long.

It is NOT impermeable to water as you can see on older barges on a thorough inspection.

Face it, it is just the second best solution (if that good).

And, just as a aside:

we are way off topic here.

Regards
Richard

The above post shows that it's some of the industry that hasn't caught up with modern materials and ignores the commercial uses. A clean barge won't have any smells to collect even if that were a problem and a dry boat as all are won't have any water or condensation to absorb even if that were a problem. Modern end users of this have not reported any of your concerns that I can find and all say it is the best, boat builders have varying opinions on many things as well but it doesn't mean they always know best, are consistent or their advice should always be followed. For a steel vessel thread it seems very much on topic.

Originally Posted by capt littlelegs

The above post shows that it's some of the industry that hasn't caught up with modern materials and ignores the commercial uses.

That is a statement we see quite often when the pro´s contradict the biased novice. Once you think a bit about it, you´ll see it is not worth a comment from my side.

Modern end users of this have not reported any of your concerns that I can find and all say it is the best,

End users commonly have experience with just a few options (quite often only one)


boat builders have varying opinions on many things as well but it doesn't mean they always know best, are consistent or their advice should always be followed.

Nobody here is forced to follow professional advice, and when there is soo much wisdom around, he probably should´nt!?

For a steel vessel thread it seems very much on topic.

This:

Steel hull isolation: alternatives to foam?

is the appropriate thread for insulation.

Regards
Richard

[capt littlelegs]

Originally Posted by capt littlelegs
The above post shows that it's some of the industry that hasn't caught up with modern materials and ignores the commercial uses.

That is a statement we see quite often when the pro´s contradict the biased novice. Once you think a bit about it, you´ll see it is not worth a comment from my side.

No this is the pros contradicting the pros, you are saying you know more about foam spraying than the professional companies who actually do it and have a reputation to keep as well as the chemical companies that produce it to rigid standards. Novice or not I still have long experience with steel boats and I am merely reporting information that contradicts your outdated views. How many steel boats have you built, worked on or foamed recently or had to put right? You built wooden boats don't you?

Modern end users of this have not reported any of your concerns that I can find and all say it is the best,

End users commonly have experience with just a few options (quite often only one)

The one they choose is usually well researched from their own and others experience including the outdated bad experiences like yours with old foam types.

boat builders have varying opinions on many things as well but it doesn't mean they always know best, are consistent or their advice should always be followed.

Nobody here is forced to follow professional advice, and when there is soo much wisdom around, he probably should´nt!?

But they are following the best professional advice, just not yours because you don't do sprayfoaming and therefore won't be the best person to ask! Yours and others dogmatic attitude that you know best on everything as pros and should always be listened to when you plainly don't know everything, is rather tiresome and diminishes the value of what you do know well and that doesn't help anyone. I only foam at the mouth sometimes so don't really give a shite if someone uses a different material.

Originally Posted by capt littlelegs

No this is the pros contradicting the pros, you are saying you know more about foam spraying than the professional companies who actually do it and have a reputation to keep as well as the chemical companies that produce it to rigid standards.

Where did I say that?


You built wooden boats don't you?

I build in 5 different yards and shops, in wood epoxy, GRP, and (until Nov. 2009 in metal)

What do you mean with outdated bad experience?

Do you assume, that Lürssen, de Vries, Haakvoort, Royal Huisman (and me) to name a few, all sit on their laurels and count their toes?

Regards
Richard

[capt littlelegs]

Originally Posted by apex1

What do you mean with outdated bad experience?

Do you assume, that Lürssen, de Vries, Haakvoort, Royal Huisman (and me) to name a few, all sit on their laurels and count their toes?

Regards
Richard

Your comments are all related to bad experience, these things as far as I can find out don't happen now with different material, if you still pursue a negative view about spray foam then it seems to me your views are outdated. Your deeper insite as you put it inferes only you know best. I don't assume anything or hear from these others or really care but let them speak for themselves if you think it's important. I'm only telling you of my experience and those of people and companies I know. If you don't agree with them then fine have it your way, everyone else is wrong and their smelly, damp ships will sink, do I really care? I will post a link and you can argue with them. http://barges.org/

Originally Posted by capt littlelegs

, do I really care? I will post a link and you can argue with them.

Oh no,

why should I care, or argue?

Our industry went forward towards better products and left others behind. Thats how it goes at the upper end of the market.

[M&M Ovenden]

I would be interested in some specific name brands, spec sheets, references of so said "not out dated" spray foam insulation products. I'm not trying to be a trouble shaker but do have interest in some specific guidance towards what the industry has to offer. So far, from here, North America, I haven't found a spray foam insulation that comforted my apprehensions.
Murielle

[capt littlelegs]

Originally Posted by apex1

Oh no,

why should I care, or argue?

Our industry went forward towards better products and left others behind. Thats how it goes at the upper end of the market.

But you do care very deeply Richard and you love to argue I can see that so what would you recommend say for a steel barge to avoid the condensation of a liveaboard life if you had to lower yourself to that end of the market?

Must we repeat that every second page?

Armacell / Armaflex is the answer today!


And, yes I like to argue! Mainly with idiotic claims and statements.

[capt littlelegs]

Originally Posted by apex1

Must we repeat that every second page?

Armacell / Armaflex is the answer today!


And, yes I like to argue! Mainly with idiotic claims and statements.

My memory doesn't extent that far back! Armacell/Armaflex, you don't say what actual product you'd use but it's still a foam with similar properties as sprayfoam! Ok so how do you prevent an air gap between the insulation and the hull where the condensation forms? If you stick it down you will still have many gaps around frames etc. that will be as bad as a poorly sprayed foam. And have you seen the price of this stuff? Another poster that had this problem:

I'm a Canadian, and Canadian houses are insulated with the insulation hard up against
the "lining" (room finish), with a vapour barrier immediately inside the insulation.
Outside the insulation (fibreglass wool, polystyrene, whatever) there is often an air gap
between it and the outside wall. So I thought that must be the way to insulate my barge
when I converted it, and I duly put in a vapour barrier and styrofoam against the ceiling
and left an air gap above/behind.

Boy was I wrong. It was probably the biggest mistake I made during the conversion.

With an air gap next to the bare (painted) metal inside the cabin top, there was heavy
condensation there. This is the because it is always slightly warmer in the gap than
outside the cabin top, and the moisture just settles out of the gap air. The worst times
were when the outside temperature dropped below freezing, and then thawed. I would
then get drips falling from the ceiling inside, as the thawed condensation fell on to the
ceiling lining and then found its way through despite my efforts during conversion to seal
the ceiling fully.

Eventually, I have replaced the insulation with foam on the metal, and the problem is
solved. Also the barge is warmer and quieter, and the roof is noticeably stiffer (when
walked or jumped on). And the foam seals to the metal, preventing interior rust.

Thinsulate is interesting, but I would still use foam wherever I could (50 mm thick). I
would save the Thinsulate for where foaming isn't feasible, e.g. in the engine room
where all the machinery etc. is already in place.

Avoid air gaps!

[hoytedow]

http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell...e?OpenDocument

Originally Posted by capt littlelegs

My memory doesn't extent that far back!

That is named "Alzheimer"..........
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boa...tml#post365430
posted 14th of May......


Armacell/Armaflex, you don't say what actual product you'd use but it's still a foam with similar properties as sprayfoam!

Nonsense, that is completely different, Hoyt has provided a link. And of course I did say which product I use

Ok so how do you prevent an air gap between the insulation and the hull where the condensation forms? If you stick it down you will still have many gaps around frames etc.

You may have gaps, pro´s do´nt!
I made a comment on that already! It is easy to avoid gaps and apply the material on frames first.

And have you seen the price of this stuff?

No, I have not seen the price! I buy my products in blind faith.............

The price is not much different from a professionally applied spray insulation, but far superior in longevity and ALL other required properties.

By so far , I have seen only unqualified, biased opinions about boat insulation coming up from you. And why are you getting personal in every post? If it does´nt convince you that the prime Yachtbuilders (and our very knowledgeable Murielle) have choosen the same product I did, ok, so be it.
But stop your idiotic attacks, stop to impute I would sell my knowledge as the only possible way of baking bread!
When it is the best material known by the industry, then IT IS THE BEST KNOWN, no matter if you or me like it.

You make a lot of noise here (as CDK already mentioned on another occasion), but there seems to be little behind.
What are you searching, a fight, or a better insight?

Go, learn about modern methods of insulation (there is not only moisture we have to care about), and work with them for decades, then come back and comment!

Richard

...and again: we are way off topic! I know you do´nt even accept that, as you obviously do´nt accept our Forum rules in general. The fact that the OP was talking about a metal boat, has nothing to do with insulating them!
Get that!