Batteries and New Battery Technologies

[FAST FRED]

This post is about storing energy, electro-chemical processes, innovation, not about accusing each other of stupidity, religion or qualifications for a man elected by the US people to pull them out of the swamp.


The problem , as always is WHO PAYS? for whatever the "answer" to some created problem is.


Left alone the free market will make the decision of weather oil or coal or ??? will be the power source of the future.

The religous LEFT wants burorats to force a "solution" based on their personal hate agendas.

The argument as usual is weather the market (as unfree as it is ) or Force and Fraud ,( government ) will decide on weather we must row our boats or not.

FF

[Pericles]

Charging batteries requires fuel use, which is politically charged.
Society is being lied to by politicians.
Politicians are the problem.
Lose the politicos.
Sun shines.
All ok.
Yes.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by CDK

What are you up to, guys?
This post is about storing energy, electro-chemical processes, innovation, not about accusing each other of stupidity, religion or qualifications for a man elected by the US people to pull them out of the swamp.

Pericles, your user name suggests wisdom, so resist the temptation to respond to caustic off-topic posts.
We are all entitled to our religions or the lack of one, and we all have opinions about politics. But we must hide both in technical discussions because they cannot possibly make a sensible contribution. If we continue following this path, we may end up quoting Donald Duck to prove our point.

I agree with you that the language on this forum is sometimes maltreated to the point where it hurts the eye, especially by authors in English speaking regions of this planet. But that tells us something about their level of education and helps in rating their opinions. Let it be!

Thank you CDK, I 've seen a few too many forum subjects get sent off track. I think that's why we have this, the Drivel Thread.

So please, lets work towards tracking solutions to the technology at hand.

[SheetWise]

Originally Posted by Pericles

Charging batteries requires fuel use, which is politically charged.
Society is being lied to by politicians.
Politicians are the problem.
Lose the politicos.
Sun shines.
All ok.
Yes.

Yes. It's an incredibly politically charged issue.

[masalai]

here is the "politics" thread http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ope...22206-127.html

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

I just happened across this interesting website that is devoted to the subject of ultracapacitors

Ultracapacitors.org
http://www.ultracapacitors.org/index.php

This EEStor group really appears to be moving right along with a production plant inbuild

Also found this discussion of interest:
Carbon Aerogel & Ultracapacitors

I was wondering what new developments might have occurred with these technologies. Regrettably I've been away from the forms for awhile.

So what's new??

[masalai]

Not much in batteries except that GM (is it) USA is going to be a heavy user of Lithium for their new car http://financialsense.com/fsu/editor...2009/0330.html and spiral wound AGM may be what I will be using - not needed for 10 months?... I am weight conscious - which is a minus for AGM and also price averse for all, which leaves rubber bands or human power

I am looking for a small (light) efficient diesel DC genset such as http://www.onsitepower.com.au/produc...ine/dc722m.htm but giving a bit more power ie 8000w at 48v nominal to charge maintain power for 2 x 4.0 R motors http://www.torqeedoaustralia.com/Tor.../Products.html - - I may even settle for 2 x 5000W or so chargers for redundancy...

[masalai]

Here is some GOOD NEWS,

for those of you, who, like me, are looking for electrical storage systems for their boats and other mobile devices.... http://financialsense.com/fsu/editor...2009/0413.html and I presume worthy investment options to consider for the long-term...

I hope that developments in these areas will make the battery option for the storage of (electrical) energy, more economically viable...

[SheetWise]

Originally Posted by masalai

Here is some GOOD NEWS,

Can you name the last two technological advancements that were a result of government intervention in markets?

There are thousands of independent free market developers working on these problems, and solutions will be found in spite of the governments efforts, not because of them.

[masalai]

Not the last two, but Australia seems to occasionally support innovation, then, when production or next step funding is sought, industry here seems to lack the aptitude to recognise something worthy and production goes overseas (in the past - often to USA) - a big one was the airlines "black box" - - actually an orange/yellow box, which came from Australia.. and I have a feeling cochlea had some support in OZ but I am not sure... - My motive for posting was relevance to a possible need and, for a change, was positive and not the usual hype & lies....

[capt vimes]

there are a lot of inovations coming in the near future due to the higher demand of our 'mobile' society and the foreseeable lack of oil.

one just recently (march this year) published inovation came from the MIT:
http://www.nature.com/news/2009/0903....2009.156.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture07853.html

this does not provide higher storage capabilities but an enourmous reduction in charging time. cell phone batteries with an charging time of ~6-10 min have been fully charged within seconds.....
licenses have been given to 2 companys so far, so there is the posibility that we have those types of batteries on the market within the next 2-3 years.

reduction in charging time = reduction of time running the generator (provided the generator has enough output) = less diesel... am i right?

[SheetWise]

Originally Posted by masalai

My motive for posting was relevance to a possible need and, for a change, was positive and not the usual hype & lies....

Anyone with money can direct the use of resources, and the application of existing technologies -- but if it's not their money, it's almost certainly going to result in malinvestment. Markets are extremely quick to adopt solutions that make economic sense -- governments only adopt solutions that make political sense.

What I read in that advertisement is nothing but hype and lies. I don't see any positive note. With the knowledge that Li-ion is going to be artificially supported as a solution and its cost subsidized, we can safely predict that alternative solutions will be made relatively more expensive and their market entry will be delayed. The government will therefore distort the economic realities and delay advancement -- as they always do.

[Guest62110524]

Originally Posted by masalai

Not the last two, but Australia seems to occasionally support innovation, then, when production or next step funding is sought, industry here seems to lack the aptitude to recognise something worthy and production goes overseas (in the past - often to USA) - a big one was the airlines "black box" - - actually an orange/yellow box, which came from Australia.. and I have a feeling cochlea had some support in OZ but I am not sure... - My motive for posting was relevance to a possible need and, for a change, was positive and not the usual hype & lies....

was not so long ago that you told this place you had commissioned this build?
So if I rang Bob and asked him had you? what would he say?
Not a bad boat that, flush decks a real plus
yes think will call ole Bob a la matin

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by SheetWise

Can you name the last two technological advancements that were a result of government intervention in markets?

There are thousands of independent free market developers working on these problems, and solutions will be found in spite of the governments efforts, not because of them.

Originally Posted by SheetWise

What I read in that advertisement is nothing but hype and lies. I don't see any positive note. With the knowledge that Li-ion is going to be artificially supported as a solution and its cost subsidized, we can safely predict that alternative solutions will be made relatively more expensive and their market entry will be delayed. The government will therefore distort the economic realities and delay advancement -- as they always do.

You have some valid points there Sheetwise, but there are some very positive developments that come out of DARPA and our National Research Labs.

The economics will drive the development more quickly in our US system, and I was really hoping that the big increase in fuel prices would be a big boost. As they dropped off, the rush to build these new technologies may have lost some momentum. But those high fuel prices will return in short order, and meanwhile the fellows who kept after new technologies will be leading the charge.

Lets hope the government involvement does not distort the equation by favoring one tech (particularly Li-ion) over the others as happened with our ethanol adoption as an alternative fuel....foolishness.

[brian eiland]

In the recent Apr/May issue of Professional Boatbuilder there was an article entitled, The Real McCoy, and dealing with the development of a Hybrid Diesel-Electric Charter Vessel.

Hybrid Diesel Electric art ProBoat
http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/e20090405/
(go to the index and click on Real McCoy article)

In that article there was a subsection dealing with the development of what they are calling ARC Lite batteries. (page42).
Interesting development

(I'm not that impressed with the rest of the vessel as a whole, but it sure shows a quest for experimentation and developments from the 'little independent guys')