Batteries and New Battery Technologies

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by BertKu

I will make over the weekend some sketches with proposals on how I would do it, on a yacht with only one or 2 panels.

Bert

Attached a sketch how I would make my first attempt to make a reflector to shine additional photons onto the solar panel. Strenghtening the 2 edges by folding the stainless steel reflector edges over, using 4 butterfly nuts like the one used on racing bikes, and keep it KISS.

I may get shot down, because of wind factor, or sunposition, if shining from the bow and the reflectors are of no use.

Anybody a better idee??
Bert.

[CDK]

Bert, the solar tracking system I saw belongs to http://www.bisol.si/
It is experimental and they regularly change the configuration. When my friend was there, snow prevented making pictures. I sometimes forget that we live at an elevation of only 10 m. and very near to the shore, where we have snow once every 4 or 5 years and you must be very quick to make a picture. So I sent the guy on an impossible errand.

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by CDK

Bert, the solar tracking system I saw belongs to http://www.bisol.si/
It is experimental and they regularly change the configuration. When my friend was there, snow prevented making pictures. I sometimes forget that we live at an elevation of only 10 m. and very near to the shore, where we have snow once every 4 or 5 years and you must be very quick to make a picture. So I sent the guy on an impossible errand.

Thanks so much CDK, It is a pity. I enlarged all the photo's, but none had reflectors on them. In anyway, I am convinced that many yachties are busy experimenting with a mirror and see what happens. The problem is that a small mirror only covers one or 2 cells and it will not make much impact. Only if one is able to cover the full panel, preferable in the evening, when the light shines at a bad angle onto the panel, only then it will create the best impact.

Also the risk of internal overloading of the interconnections will be not created at early in the morning or late in the afternoon.

Thanks, it was a good try and say thanks so much to your friend.
Bert

[Dave Gudeman]

Originally Posted by BertKu

Attached a sketch how I would make my first attempt to make a reflector to shine additional photons onto the solar panel.

Can you explain why you want to create a moving mirror rather than just making the solar cell itself move?

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by Dave Gudeman

Can you explain why you want to create a moving mirror rather than just making the solar cell itself move?

There are a few reasons why.

1) Most yachts have the heavy glass solarpanel already mounted at a fixed place.
2) The mechanical construction to make the heavy solarpanel moving around is quite a contstruction.
3) But the most important issue is, that per square meter only so many photons are entering that space. By moving the solar panel you optimise the solarpanel, but you do not add additional photons. By having a mirror you add additional photons together with the photons falling onto the panel.

I agree with you, that it would be ideal, if one could move the panel also and not only the mirror or mirrors. But be carrefull about the internal maximum current interconnections. I have written to panel manufacturers, but no response. My own experience, but this is from donkey years ago, is that it varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some have solid overdesigned interconnections, others to cut cost, are flimsy.

And should you ask a salesperson about the interconnections, he will glare at you, as off you are nuts.
Bert

[BertKu]

LIke CDK said, the journalist all have a story to tell, but none of them is able to produce a production type, to be sold over the counter at a reasonable price. We will have to wait a long time, before we really see an advert "Overstock of million times more powerfull battery than the lead acid battery, at a discounted price of 20%".

Bert

[CDK]

Now that I finally have a flat rate internet link by satellite, I explored the GM websites to see if they made any progress with the development of electric drive trains.

No!

The Chevrolet Volt will not be on sale until the 2nd half of 2011. It gets a 200 kg Korean lithium battery, good for 40 miles (!). They might have put it on the market right now without the need to actually start production because nobody will buy it.

The Opel Ampera will get the same power train, but instead of 40 miles the range is 60 km. If the driver hasn't found a wall socket before that, there is a gasoline generator built in to supply extra range at reduced performance: the so-called limping home feature.

In the meantime GM keeps selling the same big V-8's that brought them on the brink of bankruptcy and some Korean cars now labeled Chevrolet from a factory they took over a number of years ago.

On their home page GM announces that this is the NEW GM company reinventing the automobile....

[kistinie]

Originally Posted by CDK

Now that I finally have a flat rate internet link by satellite, I explored the GM websites to see if they made any progress with the development of electric drive trains.

No!

The Chevrolet Volt will not be on sale until the 2nd half of 2011. It gets a 200 kg Korean lithium battery, good for 40 miles (!). They might have put it on the market right now without the need to actually start production because nobody will buy it.

The Opel Ampera will get the same power train, but instead of 40 miles the range is 60 km. If the driver hasn't found a wall socket before that, there is a gasoline generator built in to supply extra range at reduced performance: the so-called limping home feature.

In the meantime GM keeps selling the same big V-8's that brought them on the brink of bankruptcy and some Korean cars now labeled Chevrolet from a factory they took over a number of years ago.

On their home page GM announces that this is the NEW GM company reinventing the automobile....

May i suggest you check your James Bond internet connection, it seems you have an experimental engineering problem
40 miles you said


I do not get the same information from my secret agents in the states and europe...


http://www.teslamotors.com/
On sale NOW and HERE
330 miles autonomy

http://www.planetsolar.org/newslette...20100127#video
In a few months

Unlimited autonomy



So it seems there are solutions available NOW and HERE
Even without the new batteries that will X2....X100 the autonomy ...

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by CDK

Now that I finally have a flat rate internet link by satellite, I explored the GM websites to see if they made any progress with the development of electric drive trains.

No!

Welcome back CDK,

I was watching the video "Who killed the electric car" and must say, it is not very promissing. Yes, there are a few manufacturers, like the "teslamotor" who are archieving further distances. They are very cagy in what battery they are using.

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by kistinie

http://www.teslamotors.com/
On sale NOW and HERE
330 miles autonomy


So it seems there are solutions available NOW and HERE
Even without the new batteries that will X2....X100 the autonomy ...

Do you know what battery bank the Tesla uses?

[portacruise]

Look under batteries section at wik link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster

Nothing impressive, 6831 individual, conventional, Li cells.

Porta

Originally Posted by BertKu

Do you know what battery bank the Tesla uses?

[CDK]

Originally Posted by portacruise

Look under batteries section at wik link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster

Nothing impressive, 6831 individual, conventional, Li cells.

Porta

I do not know what it takes for you to be impressed, but I think a $30.000 battery pack with 6831 cells and micro-controllers for every bank is quite impressive! But you probably meant no state of art technology.

The Tesla shows that performance electric cars are a reality, but the costs are prohibitive. Large scale production would of course lower the price of each component, but there is a large gap to be bridged between the $120.000 Tesla and the $30.000 target price for a successful mid-size car.
The latter should also have 5 seats and reasonable luggage space.

I also cannot estimate what would happen if all major car manufacturers switch to electric traction in Tesla style. Is there enough lithium to produce 10 billion cells just for passenger cars?

[kistinie]

Originally Posted by CDK

I do not know what it takes for you to be impressed, but I think a $30.000 battery pack with 6831 cells and micro-controllers for every bank is quite impressive! But you probably meant no state of art technology.

Of course this is impressive, but just today's basic tech.

Originally Posted by CDK

The Tesla shows that performance electric cars are a reality, but the costs are prohibitive. Large scale production would of course lower the price of each component, but there is a large gap to be bridged between the $120.000 Tesla and the $30.000 target price for a successful mid-size car.
The latter should also have 5 seats and reasonable luggage space.

The next tesla will be 5 adults + 2 child + unreal crazy luggage space

About price.
How much do you pay for :

--------------

Refuelling, 200.000Km in a regular good new 6Lt/100 Km car
Oil, filter, ...change every 15.000 Km
A new motor and gearbox every 250.000Km
Lungs cancer, pollution building cleaning in town, and other nice ICE gifts

-------------

Refiling your Tesla car
a New bat pack good for 1000x330 miles

Originally Posted by CDK

I also cannot estimate what would happen if all major car manufacturers switch to electric traction in Tesla style. Is there enough lithium to produce 10 billion cells just for passenger cars?

More generally, what would happen to copper, diodes, transistors, aluminium...
Of course you underline a good question.
We need to use all the possible solutions in order to change slowly, and put a gentle balanced pressure on natural resources by using all the technical solutions available.

Same for industry evolution.
Gently, cleverly accepted changes are needed.

[portacruise]

Originally Posted by CDK

I do not know what it takes for you to be impressed, but I think a $30.000 battery pack with 6831 cells and micro-controllers for every bank is quite impressive! But you probably meant no state of art technology.



I would be impressed with a battery that works around the most common failure mode of using huge numbers of SMALL individual cells and individual microcontrollers. The use of tiny cells with individual controllers is Ok for a cell phone or laptop but hardly appropriate in a car. There are potential losses, corrosion, sensor failure and slight connection weight increase at every SINGLE of the 6831 connections and a projected 5 year life to 70% capacity. That deterioration affects top speed, acceleration, range and especially cold weather performance. Short, periodic monitoring and check ups to make sure that not ONE of the 6831 connections has failed is too much of a hassel.



The Tesla shows that performance electric cars are a reality, but the costs are prohibitive. Large scale production would of course lower the price of each component, but there is a large gap to be bridged between the $120.000 Tesla and the $30.000 target price for a successful mid-size car.
The latter should also have 5 seats and reasonable luggage space.



Spending $10 to save $2 achievable with the Prius does not make sense to me, just to be 95% oil free.



I also cannot estimate what would happen if all major car manufacturers switch to electric traction in Tesla style. Is there enough lithium to produce 10 billion cells just for passenger cars?


The required fast charge infrastructure is of greater concern, probably even before materials.

Hope this helps.

Porta See responses above.

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by portacruise

The required fast charge infrastructure is of greater concern, probably even before materials.

Hope this helps.
Porta

Very much true and for that reason, solar energy should have been given greater support to come up with better re-charging facilities. I am thinking aloud now. But "re-fueling stations" with their own solar installations and battery banks who could reduce the load on the electricity grid. They could charge and re-charge reasonable fast. Maybe even some wind energy added.

I am for too long out of this solar business.
Where am I wrong.

1) per 1 square meter , the maximum theoritical efficiency archievable is 26% i.e. 260 watt per square meter

2) In the day to day production models only up to 18% i.e. 180 watt per square meter

3) There are some tricks by catching the photons passing through the first layer, to be court in the second layer. But this is expensive.

4) As previous proposed, some reflectors could increase the output, but only for small installations and (near) stationary installations.

There are reports of 3D cells, but what does it do, to increase the photons per square meter?
Is there really a method to obtain 300 watt with 1 square meter space?