Batteries and New Battery Technologies

[BertKu]

My profound apology. The short circuit current indeed increases sharply by shining a mirror onto the small solar panel. I made a mistake. I bought a new meter and forgot to change the meter lead to the Amperage side. The Voltage measurements was correct but the Amperage was garbage.
Here the correct measurements at 09h00 today 4/1/2010.
Bright sunshine.
Photons intake at 90 degrees
short circuit 26 milliAmpere
Open Voltage = 15.54 Volt

By shining a mirror close by, which added photons to the small panel.
Short circuit = 45 milliAmpere
Voltage = 15,80 Volt.

Conclusion: The Voltage logical will not raise that much as the limit was already nearly archieved by the normal volume of the photons.

But I am delighted that the shortcircuit current was increase by 73% and that with a primitive mirror and methode. !!!!!!!!!!!!

I personal do not believe that the temperature on the sea or in the harbour just above the water will make the solar panel very hot. It is a different story with installations in the Desert or inland. If it comes to the push, one could pour water over the panel to cool it down at midday. (Is this practical?)

Folks get yourself some blinking stainless steel, it will give you a booster during charging !!!! It is a cheap way to make better use of your solar panel.
Bert

[BertKu]

Here the two photo's
The one measuring 27 milli Ampere straight into the normal sun.
The second measuring 42 milli Ampere with a mirror reflecting additional photons. Sorry, I needed one hand to make a picture with the camera, therefore the mirror is not optimised.

[BertKu]

The type of small Solar panel used is from SINONAR is the type number SC-14633. For large solarpanels you could have reflectors at both sides. But watch the temperature.


Type Specifications Dimension (mm) Vop lop Voc lsc Thickness
(L) (W) (V) (mA) (V) (mA) (mm)

SC-14633 145.7 32.5 9.6 13.0 14.5 17.0 2.0
at 100Mw / cm2
Vop = Voltage Operational
Iop = Current Operational
Voc = Open Voltage
Isc = Short circuit current.

Please find out from your solarpanel supplier the max temperature your panel can handle. Probably 60 - 70 degrees Celcius. (Maybe even 100 degrees, it depends on what pvc they have used internally.)
The Max temperature for optimum efficiency is probably 40 degrees Celcius, but it does not mean that at a higher temperature you will have a problem.

[BertKu]

Hi Masalai,

If you do use some standby reflectors, please consult the manufacturer, what the maximum current can be for the internal wiring up. Normally all cells are in serial and the inter connections maybe only designed for let say 6 Ampere for a 4 Ampere panel (48 Volt / 200 Watt panel) . If you use reflectors on both side of a panel, you may go up to 10 Ampere and that maybe too much for the inter connections, not only for additional heat, but also it may weaken the soldering/welding points.

[jamesweinn]

Originally Posted by Pericles

Masalai,

Have copied just a few of the relevant posts.
----------------------------------------------------
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:13 pm

As a result of research about diesel electric propulsion for a cruising catamaran I am planning to build, I collected considerable information. A marine environment is tough, so it's possible that some marine equipment could be used to fabricate a powerful diesel electric locomotive within the loading gauge of the two railways. The OSSA 200 Kw generators are very compact.

Here are some sites worth bring to the attention of the engineers.

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/products/motors/motors.htm

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/product...generators.htm

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#Q01_12

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/

http://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/electric_propulsion.html

Perry
-------------------------------
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:05 pm

Hello Tony,

It depends on what you mean by expensive and heavy. The 1200 Ah batteries specified for my 60' catamaran are for traction and full house services. These batteries and the twin electric propulsion motors weigh less and cost less than two 60 HP propulsion diesels, one diesel 6 Kw generator, diesel fuel tanks and the relevant number of house batteries, which presently go into a conventional system for equipping a cruising catamaran. Diesels are also difficult and expensive to service in boats. Ask any marine engineer. The installation cost for my system is considerably lower, as well as much easier. Even the cooker is electric.

The two ASMO 17 Kw electric motors I shall use for propulsion whilst manoeuvring each weigh only 40 Kgs and when sailing at 6 knots+ they will rapidly recharge the batteries. She will cruise at 20 knots under sail.

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_...OOSA_17000.pdf

Thus I can dispense with any dangers and costs for cooking with LPG and all costs associated with diesel propulsion. The sum of the whole is greater than the parts. Granted my solution is only applicable because of the recent developments in the equipment and the catamaran. Prior to 2003, cruising catamarans weren't swift enough. See Gunboat 62.

http://uncutvideo.aol.com/videos/cab...b7fcdf0dd91825

Either a DE loco or a battery loco. The only real difference being the batteries or the diesel generator. The downhill stretches can be used regeneratively with the battery locomotive. There is a good case for it.

My catamaran represents a logical development in view of rising fuel costs and even with the cost of replacement batteries in 10 years time, the convenience of an all electric vessel plus the smaller running cost per nautical mile fully justify my choices. Alternative traction on the two railways might just benefit from a less traditional approach.

Regards,

Perry
-------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:17 pm

Dear Tony,

It's either diesel electric or battery, but not both. The batteries needed for a 1000 HP narrow gauge locomotive are far fewer than for a standard gauge locomotive. Then again, would the two railways require such power, as 25 mph is the line speed? A Bo-Bo battery powered locomotive would have high tractive effort and if it were necessary to haul the batteries in a separate wagon, then the possibility exists to have extra capacity on charge for more intensive services.

These are just ideas triggered by designing my catamaran to be independent of diesel fuel. For me, it's the logical step. A 17 Kw Thoosa electric motor has the torque to replace a 60 HP marine diesel. Two will power a 13 tonne catamaran to 10 knots!

PS

Have just received an update from a boat builder who is developing a DE sailing catamaran. http://www.africancats.com/

Regards,

Perry
-----------------------------------------------------
From peterk. Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:54 am

Perry wrote:

"Tony,

It's either diesel electric or battery, but not both. The batteries needed for a 1000 HP narrow gauge locomotive are far fewer than for a standard gauge locomotive. Then again, would the two railways require such power, as 25 mph is the line speed?


The figure of 1000hp came from some speculative conjecture on here (see earlier in this thread) related to pulling a 12 coach train plus failed NGG16 up a 1:40 hill at 25mph. Something of an unrealistic corner case really, but fun to conjure with in an idle moment. In the real world, the power requirement could be lowered by accepting a slower speed in that "rescue" scenario. Trains probably wont load to 12 coaches either.

Whilst not being privy to any of the real management's thinking I seem to recall a hint (was it from Mike Hart??) that something in the 600hp region would do the job.

Perry wrote:

A Bo-Bo battery powered locomotive would have high tractive effort

Yes any loco can be arranged to have a high tractive effort - but it is power that governs its ability to exert that tractive effort at a useful speed. Taking the energy density figure for the Lithium batteries from the link posted above ie 90W-h per kg a 750kWh battery pack would weigh in at 8.3 tonnes - handy to have on board the loco for adhesion purposes I would think. Of course such a loco would only have sufficient endurance to exert its maximum (power) effort of 750kw = 1000hp continuously for an hour or so, but since the WHR is more or less a hill you go up one side and down the other, this is probably another too-extreme corner case. I guess the loco would only need to give flat-out maximum power for at most half the time, and for large parts of the downhill bits it can be recovering energy through regenerative braking. Thus a 2 hr trip end to end of the line including getting out of the way afterwards to plug itself in, with some 600-1000hp performances going up the Pass seems within the realms of possibility from a single charge.

Perry wrote:

A 17 Kw Thoosa electric motor has the torque to replace a 60 HP marine diesel. Two will power a 13 tonne catamaran to 10 knots!

hmm... choice of winding design can mean the stall and low speed torque of an electric motor is greater than the diesel, but sorry, torque at a given rpm = power, and 17kw is less than half of 60hp (= 44 kw in new money) so it all depends on the rev range you want to use. There will be a speed above which that 60hp diesel can spin harder and faster than the electric motor. At lower speeds the diesel's power simply isnt being used fully. - Of course also in a boat it depends on the propellor's ability to use the power at the rpm concerned, choice of motor speed/torque curve and propellor go hand in hand, and whats right for the diesel wouldnt be right for the electric motor and vice versa, but I digress...

I guess the point is that batteries have come a long way since the 50's and 60's technology studies mentioned above, but they still have a way to go, otherwise the US army would not be earmarking $15M for a one-off shunter, they'd be slinging them together from well tried components for a tenth of the price - rather like the diesel loco builders could do for us if we had the $1.5M, which we dont!.

Ho hum. fun to ponder on all the same.

PeterK
---------------------------------------------------
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:47 am

Hello Peterk,

"There will be a speed above which that 60hp diesel can spin harder and faster than the electric motor. At lower speeds the diesel's power simply is'nt being used fully. - Of course also in a boat it depends on the propeller's ability to use the power at the rpm concerned, choice of motor speed/torque curve and propeller go hand in hand, and whats right for the diesel wouldn't be right for the electric motor and vice versa, but I digress... "

Absolutely correct. The electric motor will turn a larger propeller with a coarser pitch at lower revs without slippage and this delivers higher efficiency. Some marine diesels rev to 4400 and so need a 2-1 gearbox with the propeller sized to suit. Towards the 10 knot top speed the smaller propeller begins to loose "grip" on the water. There are a number of companies working on DE boats as the disconnection offered by the DE principle frees up more internal space for use as accommodation.

I am convinced a battery locomotive could be built at Boston Lodge from scratch, frames, bogies, the lot, for much less than £1.5 million. How about the Swiss Crocodile outline, without working pantographs?

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/...dile/14270.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ce6-8.jpeg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:G..._Krokodil.jpeg

http://86242.fotopic.net/p31914663.html

http://86242.fotopic.net/p31997064.html

Then there is this.

http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/

http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/paint.html

This would be weird.

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEU...der/leader.htm

Regards,

Perry
----------------------------------------------------
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:17 am


"Then there's the drive format - C-C has all three axles in the bogie driven as a single unit from a single point (simple, single Cardan shaft from the traction drive to the bogie and simple gearboxes on each wheelset) against Co-Co where each axle is driven independently of the others (lots of small drive systems, but superb control during start and slippery conditions)."

Bob has summarised very well, which is why I think the Crocodile system using connecting rods and a single Cardan shaft is a good solution, familiar to steam railway engineers, especially at Boston Lodge.

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/...dile/14270.jpg

Returning to the subject of battery power for a moment, here is a link to a very useful article by Nigel Calder who is a bit of a buff when it comes to latest technology. Go to page 104 at

http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/

Some who post here may have heard of Odyssey batteries, but I hadn't, so the information has enabled me to improve the design of my catamaran. However, that's another forum.

C'mon chaps, a Crocodile (battery powered) chasing a Garratt up and down Snowdonia (Kilimanjaro). That's really African!

Regards,

Perry
_________________

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:15 pm

An Internet search revealed these two sites.

http://www.active-robots.com/product...tery-guide.pdf

http://www.active-batteries.co.uk/en...ies-c-104.html

With a recharge rate 15 times faster than AGM batteries, a battery powered Crocodile could be recharged for a return run in less than an hour. The capital cost for the batteries is comparable with a diesel powered generator, without the complexity and a battery powered locomotive would cost less to run than a diesel electric.

DC motors:

http://www.menzel-elektromotoren.com...en_lagernd.php

http://www.railway-technical.com/tract-01.shtml

http://www.beta-power.co.uk/Motors.html

OK, I can understand there will be some reservations about having a battery powered locomotive that could drag the entire rolling stock of both railways combined as one train, up and over the route, but what a hoot!

Perry
_________________

From Tony Smedley
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:50 pm

Perry,

Although having a gut feeling that it doesn't sound right, I am intrigued by your ideas for a bettery loco. Not having the inclination to do the necessary homework myself, can I ask whether you can suggest figures for battery capacity requiired, its weight and space requirements, its cost including suitable charger and the voltage suggested.
In theory. a DC constant voltage power supply requires relatively simple motor controls, but they would need to be efficient, without energy wasting resistors,

Tony
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------

These extracts are part of further discussions, as wide ranging about railway propulsion as you will find opinions about propelling boats. I wonder if I can persuade the Directors to undertake a trial with sails along the flat section from Porthmadog to the foot of Nantmor Incline?


Regards,

Perry

How is it possible Mr Perry, That's fine work my dear,

Vast amount of info still its a nice ground work needed. i know.. I really appreciate for the work then for the information .. pretty much useful.

Thanks Perry,
James.

[jamesweinn]

Originally Posted by Pericles

Masalai,

Have copied just a few of the relevant posts.
----------------------------------------------------
Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 12:13 pm

As a result of research about diesel electric propulsion for a cruising catamaran I am planning to build, I collected considerable information. A marine environment is tough, so it's possible that some marine equipment could be used to fabricate a powerful diesel electric locomotive within the loading gauge of the two railways. The OSSA 200 Kw generators are very compact.

Here are some sites worth bring to the attention of the engineers.

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/products/motors/motors.htm

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/product...generators.htm

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#Q01_12

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/

http://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/electric_propulsion.html

Perry
-------------------------------
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:05 pm

Hello Tony,

It depends on what you mean by expensive and heavy. The 1200 Ah batteries specified for my 60' catamaran are for traction and full house services. These batteries and the twin electric propulsion motors weigh less and cost less than two 60 HP propulsion diesels, one diesel 6 Kw generator, diesel fuel tanks and the relevant number of house batteries, which presently go into a conventional system for equipping a cruising catamaran. Diesels are also difficult and expensive to service in boats. Ask any marine engineer. The installation cost for my system is considerably lower, as well as much easier. Even the cooker is electric.

The two ASMO 17 Kw electric motors I shall use for propulsion whilst manoeuvring each weigh only 40 Kgs and when sailing at 6 knots+ they will rapidly recharge the batteries. She will cruise at 20 knots under sail.

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_...OOSA_17000.pdf

Thus I can dispense with any dangers and costs for cooking with LPG and all costs associated with diesel propulsion. The sum of the whole is greater than the parts. Granted my solution is only applicable because of the recent developments in the equipment and the catamaran. Prior to 2003, cruising catamarans weren't swift enough. See Gunboat 62.

http://uncutvideo.aol.com/videos/cab...b7fcdf0dd91825

Either a DE loco or a battery loco. The only real difference being the batteries or the diesel generator. The downhill stretches can be used regeneratively with the battery locomotive. There is a good case for it.

My catamaran represents a logical development in view of rising fuel costs and even with the cost of replacement batteries in 10 years time, the convenience of an all electric vessel plus the smaller running cost per nautical mile fully justify my choices. Alternative traction on the two railways might just benefit from a less traditional approach.

Regards,

Perry
-------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:17 pm

Dear Tony,

It's either diesel electric or battery, but not both. The batteries needed for a 1000 HP narrow gauge locomotive are far fewer than for a standard gauge locomotive. Then again, would the two railways require such power, as 25 mph is the line speed? A Bo-Bo battery powered locomotive would have high tractive effort and if it were necessary to haul the batteries in a separate wagon, then the possibility exists to have extra capacity on charge for more intensive services.

These are just ideas triggered by designing my catamaran to be independent of diesel fuel. For me, it's the logical step. A 17 Kw Thoosa electric motor has the torque to replace a 60 HP marine diesel. Two will power a 13 tonne catamaran to 10 knots!

PS

Have just received an update from a boat builder who is developing a DE sailing catamaran. http://www.africancats.com/

Regards,

Perry
-----------------------------------------------------
From peterk. Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:54 am

Perry wrote:

"Tony,

It's either diesel electric or battery, but not both. The batteries needed for a 1000 HP narrow gauge locomotive are far fewer than for a standard gauge locomotive. Then again, would the two railways require such power, as 25 mph is the line speed?


The figure of 1000hp came from some speculative conjecture on here (see earlier in this thread) related to pulling a 12 coach train plus failed NGG16 up a 1:40 hill at 25mph. Something of an unrealistic corner case really, but fun to conjure with in an idle moment. In the real world, the power requirement could be lowered by accepting a slower speed in that "rescue" scenario. Trains probably wont load to 12 coaches either.

Whilst not being privy to any of the real management's thinking I seem to recall a hint (was it from Mike Hart??) that something in the 600hp region would do the job.

Perry wrote:

A Bo-Bo battery powered locomotive would have high tractive effort

Yes any loco can be arranged to have a high tractive effort - but it is power that governs its ability to exert that tractive effort at a useful speed. Taking the energy density figure for the Lithium batteries from the link posted above ie 90W-h per kg a 750kWh battery pack would weigh in at 8.3 tonnes - handy to have on board the loco for adhesion purposes I would think. Of course such a loco would only have sufficient endurance to exert its maximum (power) effort of 750kw = 1000hp continuously for an hour or so, but since the WHR is more or less a hill you go up one side and down the other, this is probably another too-extreme corner case. I guess the loco would only need to give flat-out maximum power for at most half the time, and for large parts of the downhill bits it can be recovering energy through regenerative braking. Thus a 2 hr trip end to end of the line including getting out of the way afterwards to plug itself in, with some 600-1000hp performances going up the Pass seems within the realms of possibility from a single charge.

Perry wrote:

A 17 Kw Thoosa electric motor has the torque to replace a 60 HP marine diesel. Two will power a 13 tonne catamaran to 10 knots!

hmm... choice of winding design can mean the stall and low speed torque of an electric motor is greater than the diesel, but sorry, torque at a given rpm = power, and 17kw is less than half of 60hp (= 44 kw in new money) so it all depends on the rev range you want to use. There will be a speed above which that 60hp diesel can spin harder and faster than the electric motor. At lower speeds the diesel's power simply isnt being used fully. - Of course also in a boat it depends on the propellor's ability to use the power at the rpm concerned, choice of motor speed/torque curve and propellor go hand in hand, and whats right for the diesel wouldnt be right for the electric motor and vice versa, but I digress...

I guess the point is that batteries have come a long way since the 50's and 60's technology studies mentioned above, but they still have a way to go, otherwise the US army would not be earmarking $15M for a one-off shunter, they'd be slinging them together from well tried components for a tenth of the price - rather like the diesel loco builders could do for us if we had the $1.5M, which we dont!.

Ho hum. fun to ponder on all the same.

PeterK
---------------------------------------------------
Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:47 am

Hello Peterk,

"There will be a speed above which that 60hp diesel can spin harder and faster than the electric motor. At lower speeds the diesel's power simply is'nt being used fully. - Of course also in a boat it depends on the propeller's ability to use the power at the rpm concerned, choice of motor speed/torque curve and propeller go hand in hand, and whats right for the diesel wouldn't be right for the electric motor and vice versa, but I digress... "

Absolutely correct. The electric motor will turn a larger propeller with a coarser pitch at lower revs without slippage and this delivers higher efficiency. Some marine diesels rev to 4400 and so need a 2-1 gearbox with the propeller sized to suit. Towards the 10 knot top speed the smaller propeller begins to loose "grip" on the water. There are a number of companies working on DE boats as the disconnection offered by the DE principle frees up more internal space for use as accommodation.

I am convinced a battery locomotive could be built at Boston Lodge from scratch, frames, bogies, the lot, for much less than £1.5 million. How about the Swiss Crocodile outline, without working pantographs?

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/...dile/14270.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ce6-8.jpeg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:G..._Krokodil.jpeg

http://86242.fotopic.net/p31914663.html

http://86242.fotopic.net/p31997064.html

Then there is this.

http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/

http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/paint.html

This would be weird.

http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEU...der/leader.htm

Regards,

Perry
----------------------------------------------------
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:17 am


"Then there's the drive format - C-C has all three axles in the bogie driven as a single unit from a single point (simple, single Cardan shaft from the traction drive to the bogie and simple gearboxes on each wheelset) against Co-Co where each axle is driven independently of the others (lots of small drive systems, but superb control during start and slippery conditions)."

Bob has summarised very well, which is why I think the Crocodile system using connecting rods and a single Cardan shaft is a good solution, familiar to steam railway engineers, especially at Boston Lodge.

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/...dile/14270.jpg

Returning to the subject of battery power for a moment, here is a link to a very useful article by Nigel Calder who is a bit of a buff when it comes to latest technology. Go to page 104 at

http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/

Some who post here may have heard of Odyssey batteries, but I hadn't, so the information has enabled me to improve the design of my catamaran. However, that's another forum.

C'mon chaps, a Crocodile (battery powered) chasing a Garratt up and down Snowdonia (Kilimanjaro). That's really African!

Regards,

Perry
_________________

Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:15 pm

An Internet search revealed these two sites.

http://www.active-robots.com/product...tery-guide.pdf

http://www.active-batteries.co.uk/en...ies-c-104.html

With a recharge rate 15 times faster than AGM batteries, a battery powered Crocodile could be recharged for a return run in less than an hour. The capital cost for the batteries is comparable with a diesel powered generator, without the complexity and a battery powered locomotive would cost less to run than a diesel electric.

DC motors:

http://www.menzel-elektromotoren.com...en_lagernd.php

http://www.railway-technical.com/tract-01.shtml

http://www.beta-power.co.uk/Motors.html

OK, I can understand there will be some reservations about having a battery powered locomotive that could drag the entire rolling stock of both railways combined as one train, up and over the route, but what a hoot!

Perry
_________________

From Tony Smedley
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:50 pm

Perry,

Although having a gut feeling that it doesn't sound right, I am intrigued by your ideas for a bettery loco. Not having the inclination to do the necessary homework myself, can I ask whether you can suggest figures for battery capacity requiired, its weight and space requirements, its cost including suitable charger and the voltage suggested.
In theory. a DC constant voltage power supply requires relatively simple motor controls, but they would need to be efficient, without energy wasting resistors,

Tony
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------

These extracts are part of further discussions, as wide ranging about railway propulsion as you will find opinions about propelling boats. I wonder if I can persuade the Directors to undertake a trial with sails along the flat section from Porthmadog to the foot of Nantmor Incline?


Regards,

Perry

How is it possible Mr Perry, That's fine work my dear,

Vast amount of info still its a nice ground work needed. i know.. I really appreciate for the work then for the information .. pretty much useful.

Thanks Perry,
James.




.
metal halide floodlights
portable metal halide floodlights

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by jamesweinn

James

Hi James,

That is very interesting information which you have consolidated. Certainly some of it, can be used as handy guidance.

By the way, am I correct, that you have repeated the same information twice. ? Maybe you could remove the first one, which does not have your link to your website, except if there is a reason to have it repeated twice. Just go to the bottom and click on "delete".

Bert

[Grant Nelson]

In case it was mentioned elsewhere in this thread:

On June 23, IBM announced a multiyear effort to increase the performance of rechargeable batteries by a factor of 10.

http://www.businessweek.com/technolo...ge_top+stories

[D.I.M.1]

Wow that's a lot of quotes but anyway, thought to ask what's the energy density of this new battery?

[CDK]

Originally Posted by D.I.M.1

Wow that's a lot of quotes but anyway, thought to ask what's the energy density of this new battery?

For info on existing and future batteries, just one link is enough:

http://www.batteriesdigest.com/index.htm

Pay particular attention to the difference between theoretical density and actual one. Most "breaking news" is a journalist's misinterpretation of scientific publications. The scientists always communicate theory because that is their world, what the industry does with it is not their concern.

[BertKu]

Hi CDK,

I wish that somebody would expiriment with some larger solar panels, something like 12 Volt/ 36 watt type.
That was quite interesting, the way the mirror/reflector was positioned in relation to the small solar panel, what a difference it made.

Where the greatest gain for the boat users can be archieved, is when the sun goes down and you still want to draw some higher currents from the light falling on the normally horizontally mounted panel, to boost your battery bank.

One does not have the risk to burn internally the interconnections through, but maintain the supply current as off it is at 12 noon.

It has to stay practical and a hugh reflector wappering in the wind is also not practical. Did you had a chance to contact your friend?
Bert

[CDK]

Bert, I did contact him, but he is not a technician and lives in another city. But in the next few days he is doing another errand for me which takes him to the same route I was traveling a couple of weeks ago.

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by CDK

Bert, I did contact him, but he is not a technician and lives in another city. But in the next few days he is doing another errand for me which takes him to the same route I was traveling a couple of weeks ago.

Thanks CDK, as long he is able to make some nice pictures, it should be fine that he is not a technician. In anyway he does us a favor and a given horse one does not look in the mouth. Pity that you don't have some larger solarpanels yourself, to come to the same conclusion.

If we can increase safely the output power by 100% , it would also be a big saving for me, on the solar battery bank part. You buy 200 watt and get 400. Sounds like a good supermarket advert.

Bert.

[CDK]

My Dutch company had a distribution contract with Siemens Solarsystems for a number of years. At the time they had their headquarters on the Kraftwerkunion industrial zone near Düsseldorf, where they also did their research.
They experimented with tracking systems, mirrors. Fresnel lenses etc. but at the end decided that these reduced reliability. The main market was telecom repeater stations, marine beacons etc. where maintenance would be very expensive.

We experimented with mirrors and 3M reflective tape to increase the output of a panel and could easily obtain 150% of the nominal output, but not on fixed installations because sooner or later the reflectors cast a shadow and reduce the output instead of increasing it. To prevent that, the mirrors must be lowered, but that would require levers, swivel points etc.

The only approved addition was a thin stainless steel tube that could rotate around a wire or bar, mounted over the top of the panels. It was very effective against seagulls: after a few attempts they considered the panels as dangerous and didn't come near them anymore.

[BertKu]

Originally Posted by CDK

The only approved addition was a thin stainless steel tube that could rotate around a wire or bar, mounted over the top of the panels. It was very effective against seagulls: after a few attempts they considered the panels as dangerous and didn't come near them anymore.

Yes, we also had a wire spun over the top of the panels,whereby the seagulls did not have a grip on the panels no longer. But there were enough circling above the panels to make life difficult for the maintenance team.

I am a different sort of bagger. If everybody say, it cannot be done, I say, sure there must be a solution. Yes, for permanent large installations and for far away sites, it is a problem to use reflectors. But like you said it can mean up to 150% increase. Most of the smaller yachts have only 1 or maybe 2 panels and a yacht is moving too much around on the sea to make something workable.

But we talking about yachts and a yachtsman , who can easy shift the reflector in such a position every few hours or shorter, to have the pleasure from additional inflow of energy. Not expensive maintenance people who earn a fortune with overtime and distance travel.

I will make over the weekend some sketches with proposals on how I would do it, on a yacht with only one or 2 panels.

By the way, I got my solarcells from the Siemens components division in Balanstrasse in Munchen and the panels from the company in France which had a contract with the components group, I think it was a Philips owned French company.

Bert